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koronya marcell rosenbaum experience - Page 3  

post #31 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by distinctive View Post
Perhaps not unreasonable but I would guess that the time was an estimate given to him and some leniency should go unsaid. Bespoke shoes take a long time to complete and a couple of months could be made up in later construction.
Well, we don't really know exactly what happened. But if the OP is being accurate, then it was more than just an estimate. Anyway, being wrong on an estimate three or four times over is beyond what a reasonable consumer should tolerate. If you give me a one month estimate, and it takes five weeks, no problem--but if it takes two, three, or four months, I won't be so happy.
post #32 of 279
The bespoke process for shoes in most cases will take at least six months and depending upon demand, can take up to a year. Marcell and the other makers have many more customers than one and so if you are serious about buying bespoke shoes, then you must be prepared to wait and then have some flexibility in the time frame.
post #33 of 279
I wonder if all the courses and apprenticeships being offered are finally taking its toll. Having 7-8 students a month can be disruptive in the workshop. The business of education is definitely more lucrative than the business of making shoes.
post #34 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Well, we don't really know exactly what happened. But if the OP is being accurate, then it was more than just an estimate. Anyway, being wrong on an estimate three or four times over is beyond what a reasonable consumer should tolerate. If you give me a one month estimate, and it takes five weeks, no problem--but if it takes two, three, or four months, I won't be so happy.

There are many reasons that the process can take much more time than estimated as there are other factors involved- lasts have to be remade, suppliers might be delayed, another customer has issues that need to be resolved. My own process with Koronya took longer than expected but I was in communication with Marcell and knew about the delays.

I'd say that that the real issue here is "what we have here is a failure to communicate".
post #35 of 279
I wonder how many man hours go into a handmade shoe. Ignore leather production, thread production, etc. How many hours does marcel or cliff roberts put in? I'd guess 10, and I think this might be generous.

Clicking - 30 mins. Sewing uppers - 2 hrs. Footbed/welt - 3 hrs. Soles & heels - 2hrs. (don't count glue-drying time, he can do other soles as that takes place). Insoles - 1hr. Finishing - 1.5 hrs.

Idunno how long springline takes to make a bespoke last, but that only needs to be done once.

Any time sitting on the last, etc, is time the artisan can use doing other stuff. Other opinions? I think marcel has a video of the process in general. With his speed I doubt it takes more than 10 hrs/pair. People that have been doing something for a long time can get super speedy. Maybe its 5.

Edit:------------------

On to economics. If its 10 hrs, and input costs are 200 leather(?), 100 soles(?), 50 miscellaneous, thats 350 cost, 1500 income, 1150 net, 115/hr marginal income/shoe ex lasts. You could use springline last costs to consumer as a proxy for a makers lasts.
post #36 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post
I wonder how many man hours go into a handmade shoe. Ignore leather production, thread production, etc. How many hours does marcel or cliff roberts put in? I'd guess 10, and I think this might be generous.

Clicking - 30 mins. Sewing uppers - 2 hrs. Footbed/welt - 3 hrs. Soles & heels - 2hrs. (don't count glue-drying time, he can do other soles as that takes place). Insoles - 1hr. Finishing - 1.5 hrs.

Idunno how long springline takes to make a bespoke last, but that only needs to be done once.

Any time sitting on the last, etc, is time the artisan can use doing other stuff. Other opinions? I think marcel has a video of the process in general. With his speed I doubt it takes more than 10 hrs/pair. People that have been doing something for a long time can get super speedy. Maybe its 5.

I think you had better read the following from Perry Ercolino's website.

http://www.perryercolino.com/bespoke_shoes.php
post #37 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post
I wonder how many man hours go into a handmade shoe. Ignore leather production, thread production, etc. How many hours does marcel or cliff roberts put in? I'd guess 10, and I think this might be generous.

Clicking - 30 mins. Sewing uppers - 2 hrs. Footbed/welt - 3 hrs. Soles & heels - 2hrs. (don't count glue-drying time, he can do other soles as that takes place). Insoles - 1hr. Finishing - 1.5 hrs.

Idunno how long springline takes to make a bespoke last, but that only needs to be done once.

Any time sitting on the last, etc, is time the artisan can use doing other stuff. Other opinions? I think marcel has a video of the process in general. With his speed I doubt it takes more than 10 hrs/pair. People that have been doing something for a long time can get super speedy. Maybe its 5.

Edit:------------------

On to economics. If its 10 hrs, and input costs are 200 leather(?), 100 soles(?), 50 miscellaneous, thats 350 cost, 1500 income, 1150 net, 115/hr marginal income/shoe ex lasts. You could use springline last costs to consumer as a proxy for a makers lasts.


I see you know almost nothing about bespoke shoes. If you can make a pair of bespoke shoes in 10 hours you are going to get rich very quickly.

It normally takes between 40 and 60 hours.

Adrian
post #38 of 279
^ I don't think that sheds any new light on the process or timing thereof...

I was trying to point 2 up
post #39 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by LynahFaithful View Post
There are many reasons that the process can take much more time than estimated as there are other factors involved- lasts have to be remade, suppliers might be delayed, another customer has issues that need to be resolved. My own process with Koronya took longer than expected but I was in communication with Marcell and knew about the delays.

I'd say that that the real issue here is "what we have here is a failure to communicate".

But it may not just be about communication. If, in fact, the OP was promised a certain schedule, than Koronya/Marcell were obligated to stick to it, or otherwise risk losing the sale.
post #40 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajv View Post
I see you know almost nothing about bespoke shoes. If you can make a pair of bespoke shoes in 10 hours you are going to get rich very quickly.

+1
post #41 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajv View Post
I see you know almost nothing about bespoke shoes. If you can make a pair of bespoke shoes in 10 hours you are going to get rich very quickly.

It normally takes between 40 and 60 hours.

Adrian

I know a lot more than nothing (so don't be a dick), but I didn't profess to know a lot or everything.

If there are actually up to 60hrs of hand work in a shoe I'm very surprised.
post #42 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
But it may not just be about communication. If, in fact, the OP was promised a certain schedule, than Koronya/Marcell were obligated to stick to it, or otherwise risk losing the sale.

I was promised a certain schedule too. But it did not come to pass as there were extenuating circumstances. However, I communicated with Marcell and knew about the delays. Marcell is running a very small workshop. There are going to be schedule changes. Ultimately, Marcell and/or Itamar are going to have to communicate those changes to their customers. I agree with you partially in that it would seem that Marcell/Itamar may have to be more realistic in announcing their ability to deliver on a one to two month promise of a pair of bespoke shoes. But, I do believe there was a very big failure to communicate here.
post #43 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post
If there are actually up to 60hrs of hand work in a shoe I'm very surprised.
That would be more than surprising, that would be financial suicide. Materials, overhead + 60 hours of highly skilled labor? Don't think so.


Maybe the 40-60 hour number includes time when the shoe rests on the last or whatever...
post #44 of 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal_yuppie View Post
I know a lot more than nothing (so don't be a dick), but I didn't profess to know a lot or everything. If there are actually up to 60hrs of hand work in a shoe I'm very surprised.
Well, if you don't even know the basics, like how long it takes to make a pair of bespoke shoes, you should keep your comments on another level. Call yourself whatever you wish, I have my opinion. P.S. : on the other hand if you can't get the heat ......well you know..... Adrian
post #45 of 279
The obvious course of action here is a class action lawsuit against Marcell and Rosenbaum's on behalf of all SF members. Their failure to adhere to a strict delivery schedule and to cause undue duress to the OP has obviously had a psychologically scarring effect on the forum as a whole and they must be made to pay for it. I can no longer look at pictures of bespoke shoes without getting vertigo. Solito should be included in the suit (no pun) for their failure to adhere to their preannounced traveling schedule also. This is all very distressing and these used car salesmen need to be made to feel the wrath of the forum.
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