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Persian Rugs - Page 2

post #16 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnapril
Personally, and this is just me, but I would rather:

1) become an expert on oriental rugs
2) travel to the source
3) make my own contacts
4) establish relationships with merchants

than:

1) buy overpriced rugs from the first world

It takes longer, but you come away from the experience with more than a floor covering.

Of course, you'd need to dedicate your life. For some rugs, perhaps this is not such a huge sacrifice.

John, I definitely agree with you in principle and when I was younger I wouldn't have done it any other way. As it is now, my time is at a premium, so the travel part of the equation would be pretty difficult. In any case, I can become something of an expert, and doing so starts with looking at rugs locally and learning by actually seeing and touching a variety of rugs.

At any rate, it's becoming quite clear that purchasing rugs is going to be a long and deliberate process.
post #17 of 71
Thread Starter 
I stumbled across http://www.rugman.com/ in my web travels. The site is extremely informative about oriental rugs generally. The prices, however, seem as much too low as prices elsewhere seem too high.

Is anyone familiar with this seller? What is the catch to these low prices?
post #18 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantucket Red
I stumbled across http://www.rugman.com/ in my web travels. The site is extremely informative about oriental rugs generally. The prices, however, seem as much too low as prices elsewhere seem too high.

Is anyone familiar with this seller? What is the catch to these low prices?

I too stumbled across this site when I was at the point you are now in researching rugs. The main problem with the items offered on this site to me is the design quality of the rugs. If you do the close up of the rugs the colors are garish and tacky looking. Try to compare to some of the rugs at the previous sites mentioned and I believe that you will see the difference. Also I doubt that vegetable dyes are used. They may have just given the rugs some kind of wash to justify saying that vegetable dyes were used. When you consider that, these rugs don't seem that much of a bargain.
post #19 of 71
NR,

as a total non expert, here is my take - there are antique rugs, made with vegetable dies and in traditional colors. those are expensive, beutiful and increase in value.

there are "new" used rugs in wool and cotton, from the past 30 years, these are extremly cheap, may not use vegitable dies, may "only" have another 30 to 50 years of use, and will not increase in value.

there are brand new rugs, in silk (as well as wool and cotton) that you choose to fit exactly what you want, that have beutiful new sheens, look new and feel thick and plush, more expensive that the older ones, but not as expensive as the antique ones, and won't increase in value. good chance our grandkids will use these in their living rooms.
post #20 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmath
I too stumbled across this site when I was at the point you are now in researching rugs. The main problem with the items offered on this site to me is the design quality of the rugs. If you do the close up of the rugs the colors are garish and tacky looking. Try to compare to some of the rugs at the previous sites mentioned and I believe that you will see the difference. Also I doubt that vegetable dyes are used. They may have just given the rugs some kind of wash to justify saying that vegetable dyes were used. When you consider that, these rugs don't seem that much of a bargain.

Somehow, I suspected that there was some such story behind it. The site is informative, but I would never expect to get an investment-grade rug from a place selling rugs in the hundreds of dollars. It struck me as the Men's Warehouse of carpet stores.

Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
NR,

as a total non expert, here is my take - there are antique rugs, made with vegetable dies and in traditional colors. those are expensive, beutiful and increase in value.

there are "new" used rugs in wool and cotton, from the past 30 years, these are extremly cheap, may not use vegitable dies, may "only" have another 30 to 50 years of use, and will not increase in value.

there are brand new rugs, in silk (as well as wool and cotton) that you choose to fit exactly what you want, that have beutiful new sheens, look new and feel thick and plush, more expensive that the older ones, but not as expensive as the antique ones, and won't increase in value. good chance our grandkids will use these in their living rooms.

What I want are collector rugs made with handspun wool and natural dies. After just a little bit of research, it's clear that these can be had at a price. I originally was considering a budget of about $3500 per rug tops, but it looks like I'll have to throw budget constraints out the window. I'm not going to find a stunning Tabriz or Kerman by skimping.

I live in mortal terror of my grandkids (if there ever are any) considering me a skinflint. I'm prepared to lay out good money to live with and pass on good stuff.
post #21 of 71
In that case, I think you are going about it the exact right way. What I am in the market for is different - I want new, silk, handmade rugs, which I am figuring to get at source for less than $1K. I'd love to blow $15K on carpets, but I can't justify that, at this stage in my life.

just an aside - my grandmother went to afganastan in the 50's for 5 years, and came home with what would probrably be $100K in carpets today. as she got older, she took really bad care of them, cats were involved, and then, when she died, her kids argued about her stuff and everything went into storage and in the end, nobody got anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantucket Red
Somehow, I suspected that there was some such story behind it. The site is informative, but I would never expect to get an investment-grade rug from a place selling rugs in the hundreds of dollars. It struck me as the Men's Warehouse of carpet stores.



What I want are collector rugs made with handspun wool and natural dies. After just a little bit of research, it's clear that these can be had at a price. I originally was considering a budget of about $3500 per rug tops, but it looks like I'll have to throw budget constraints out the window. I'm not going to find a stunning Tabriz or Kerman by skimping.

I live in mortal terror of my grandkids (if there ever are any) considering me a skinflint. I'm prepared to lay out good money to live with and pass on good stuff.
post #22 of 71
The 1950s would have been the Nadir Shah period, I recall. It was somewhat cosmopolitan. Globetrotter, is that a Joel-Peter Witkin avatar?
post #23 of 71
LK

its Seiji Miyaguchi from the 7 samurai, in the scene where he is waiting patiently to kill the bandits in a field of flowers. Skalogre was kind enough to find it for me.
post #24 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
LK

its Seiji Miyaguchi from the 7 samurai, in the scene where he is waiting patiently to kill the bandits in a field of flowers. Skalogre was kind enough to find it for me.
Ah, it looks like a Witkin photo in that size.
post #25 of 71
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
In that case, I think you are going about it the exact right way. What I am in the market for is different - I want new, silk, handmade rugs, which I am figuring to get at source for less than $1K. I'd love to blow $15K on carpets, but I can't justify that, at this stage in my life.

just an aside - my grandmother went to afganastan in the 50's for 5 years, and came home with what would probrably be $100K in carpets today. as she got older, she took really bad care of them, cats were involved, and then, when she died, her kids argued about her stuff and everything went into storage and in the end, nobody got anything.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Globe. I'm very fortunate to have some capital to throw at this project, but that doesn't mean I'm approaching it with more dollars than sense. My furniture will be ready about two months from the time I order it in another week or two. Ideally, I'd like to have the rugs in place when it arrives, but it's looking like that will be a tall order.

I wouldn't be doing this if I had twins on the way.
post #26 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantucket Red
Thanks, everyone, for the feedback. I've found it quite helpful.

Thanks, Jmath, for those links. I've been studying up.

I've decided that since I'm commissioning custom handmade furniture for the entire place, I also want collector-grade rugs. This means hand-spun, naturally died rugs. I'm buying nothing sight-unseen.

Zach and John, I spent quite a bit of time in India in the late 80s-early 90s when I was studying the sitar, so I'm quite familiar with the kinds of opportunities it presents as well as the logistical challenges. Still, the more I think about it, the more travelling to the region to buy just plain makes sense.

Since I would have to take as brief and targeted a trip as possible, I would need to have as much specific information as possible before I go. For example, where can I find the best selection of hand-spun, naturally died rugs? What is the price differential? For example, what would I pay for an exquisite Persian Tabriz that would cost over $20k in the States (and likely way more in Japan)? I'm not shy about putting money into this, but naturally I want to maximize my purchasing power. I would also have to factor in shipping and customs charges in addition to travel expenses.

Can anyone give me an idea of how to manage the logistics of a rug-purchasing trip?

if you are buying a rug for the first time,you are very lucky because i accidently read your post,
instead of trying to explain how good i am at this subject i prefer to get right to the point, most people now days tend to be apealed to rugs that macth the colour of there interior decoration. We have no right to critisize this because it's Taste , one man's trash is other man's treausure.But i can't keep my self from critisizing.İf a carpet has the identical colours as it surrounding it will look machine-made.It won't have any spirit.
When we are selecting hand made carpet's we must select as if we're selecting any kind of art.Paintings , scrupture , e.t.c.What we must look for is for the carpet to speak to us.Only you will hear it speak.It will say to you 'buy me'!.
Yes , of course the colours must compliment the area where it's being used.But the colours must be completely different in order to make a statement and say ' I am here'.Because they're so beautiful , they hate being ignored.You can hear from everyone different opinions.Don't let this confuse you for everyone speaks they're own taste.I'll personaly make sure that you're guided to making the best decision which will keep you happy all your life.I am the owner and the president of Carpet's International.I was bored and i was surfing through internet.Client like yourself maybe too voulnerable for some people it's not for me to comment because there are also very many good people outthere who are doing decent bussines.I'll leave you e-mail and contact number.Pls. contact me and I will explain you the details on how you can see some very nice works of art at reasonable value.

Best Regards and Good Luck..
P.S:Pls. ask for me personally.

Halim Karagoziyan
hlmkrgz@yahoo.com
Tel:1-817-704 3032
post #27 of 71
Nantucket Red:

Greetings from the land of beautiful oriental carpets!

For the last week or so, I have been following your thread about which Persian carpets to purchase with great interest. I've been a SF member for a couple of years now, and I always enjoy reading your posts. I don't post very often on forums (SF, AAAC or LL), but I always enjoy everyones (mostly) intelligent and witty opinions.

I have been looking at and buying oriental carpets (some Persian, mostly Afghan) for 25+ years now, so I thought I might be able to assist you in your decision making.

My first recommendation would be for you to decide what color carpet you would like to buy. Then, think about the style of the carpet, for example: floral or geometric. Size is also important, too small a rug can be lost in a room, too large and it just overwhelms. Be sure that the carpets you buy are silk or wool or a combination of the two.

From your posts it sounds like you want top quality carpets, so you need to look for a high knot count and well finished edges. Personally I like a nice bit of flat weave on my carpets. If the ends are embroidered, that is a good sign of quality too. It proves that the weaver put thought and care into what he/she made. Also, I would advise you to buy new carpets. In my experience, most first-time buyers feel better about purchasing new carpets.

Lastly, I would advise you to buy your carpets locally, there are advantages to doing this. Unless you really want to travel to Kabul, Tehran or Kashgar, that is!

OBTW: DO NOT buy carpets on the internet! It is important that you see and feel a carpet before you buy it. Just my 2 cents...

Good luck!

John R. Kane
LTC, US Army
Kabul, Afghanistan
kanej@isaf-hq.nato.int
post #28 of 71
Thread Starter 
I paid a visit to the rug shop in my new neighborhood yesterday. It is run by an Iranian gentleman who was a diplomat posted to Japan when the revolution happened. He sought political asylum and got Japanese citizenship. He showed me over a dozen rugs, and after looking, feeling, and discussing at length, we narrowed it down to three candidates for the dining room rug; two Tabriz and an Isfahan. My favorite Tabriz also happens to be the least expensive of the lot, cheap being a term that is in no way applicable.

I am going to buy wool rugs. Silk rugs are things you hang on the wall.

CitizenK, I think I'm going to follow your advice and buy locally. The advantages are that they will bring the rugs I like to my apartment so I can see the actual rugs in place. Also, it will allow me to develop a relationship with the seller, who actually lives very close by in the higher rent area of the neighborhood. Many of the rugs he can discount steeply. Considering also that I simply don't have the time for a purchasing trip, buying locally has clear advantages, price not necessarily being among them.
post #29 of 71
Nantucket,

I knew you were the sensible type! Just don't buy any of those white Tabriz'es, they show dirt something terrible.

Well, that's it for now. I've got 7 weeks more before I head back to Norfolk VA, and it can't come soon enough.

If you want to raise an old soldiers morale, send (kanej@isaf-hq.nato.int) or post some more pictures of Ms. Pussycat! She is a beauriful woman!

Best Regards,

J.R. Kane
post #30 of 71
Have you seen these Afghan war rugs?
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