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Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II - Page 1078

post #16156 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, tanning is part of it and if the tannery is trying to process a hide in as short a time as possible the probability that the result will be second-rate rises correspondingly., irrespective of the raw-hide quality.

Your input on this is incredible, Sir DWFII... as usual! Just wanted to add that I agree 100% with your early comment that my collection is really NOT a proper representation of what the BEST of Vintage shoes had to offer. In fact, my collection (and the shoes I like to deal with) are the best of "what still survives". There is a drop off, quality wise between the 20's to the 30's to the 40's, and finally the 50's. After that, quality is waaaaay down. I prefer 30's, style wise, but the best I have ever seen are from the late 1800's and very early 1900's. The workmanship is unreal, to say the least. So sad that none of them are wearable today. 100 year old leather is simply past it's expiration date.

About leather quality, my 94 year old cobbler has told me that he believes that the "intended use" of today's cattle is a major factor. Today, cattle are raised for food and breeding purposes first, and for the most part, the hides are almost an afterthought. All the steroids and supplements added to their diets may be good for meat, but not so for the leather. He says that when he was still a boy, there were cattle that were bred and raised for the quality of leather they could produce.

What are your thoughts on this?
post #16157 of 19808
Here is a pair of 1900 to 1910's "F@$K IT" shoes by Stetson.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/80004293?img=2

Of course the style is psychedelic and generally crazy wild. However, it was not really made to be worn (although they ARE worn, and it looks to be more than 1x). Just an example of a maker showing off their skills nearly 100 years ago.
post #16158 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by isshinryu101 View Post

Here is a pair of 1900 to 1910's "F@$K IT" shoes by Stetson.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/search-the-collections/80004293?img=2

Of course the style is psychedelic and generally crazy wild. However, it was not really made to be worn (although they ARE worn, and it looks to be more than 1x). Just an example of a maker showing off their skills nearly 100 years ago.

 

LOL...is that a chef's shoe?

post #16159 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddler View Post

LOL...is that a chef's shoe?

my first thought was something like Aladdin. Stylistic impressions aside, very nice workmanship.
post #16160 of 19808

Outstanding posts in the last few pages.  I love this forum when it's like this...I can feel my brain flexing.  The high end shoe debate is not as cuddly-friendly as TWAT, but the only area of this place that rivals it for quality.

 

Jubei, whatever the views above on G&G (some of which I share), and even though I don't like the Deco last much....the very idea of those boots is immense, and I applaud you for having them made.  Jolly well done!

 

DWF: Re. 60/inch etc, I have a question: to get anywhere near that, what kind of thread would be used?  I can understand a needle-thin awl and a fine hair instead of a bristle, but what I can't understand is what was strong and supple enough two hundred years ago to hold the leather, while being, say, 1/100th of an inch in diameter?  Maybe he plucked that poor child's whole bonce...

post #16161 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by isshinryu101 View Post

Your input on this is incredible, Sir DWFII... as usual! Just wanted to add that I agree 100% with your early comment that my collection is really NOT a proper representation of what the BEST of Vintage shoes had to offer. In fact, my collection (and the shoes I like to deal with) are the best of "what still survives". There is a drop off, quality wise between the 20's to the 30's to the 40's, and finally the 50's. After that, quality is waaaaay down. I prefer 30's, style wise, but the best I have ever seen are from the late 1800's and very early 1900's. The workmanship is unreal, to say the least. So sad that none of them are wearable today. 100 year old leather is simply past it's expiration date.

About leather quality, my 94 year old cobbler has told me that he believes that the "intended use" of today's cattle is a major factor. Today, cattle are raised for food and breeding purposes first, and for the most part, the hides are almost an afterthought. All the steroids and supplements added to their diets may be good for meat, but not so for the leather. He says that when he was still a boy, there were cattle that were bred and raised for the quality of leather they could produce.

What are your thoughts on this?

Isshy,

I didn't mean to diss your collection and to the extent that it came off that way, I apologize. From what I've seen, most of your collection is manufactured work. And while very good, probably you have to venture into "best of class" bespoke work to really get your socks knocked off.

Additionally...and something you alluded to...my historian friend will tell you that especially as you go back in time what we see in vintage or antique shoes tends to be stuff that wasn't sold or didn't fit or wasn't made quite right. The shoes or boots that no one wore or could wear, in other words--it's all that survives because the really great stuff got worn to the point that it was thrown away.

As for the quality of the leather, your cobbler friend has it right in every respect. All those issues were at the back of my mind when I posted my remarks about "corn-fed" and "unstressed environments" but just never made it to the keyboard. Glad you passed that on...it's critical to understanding leather quality.
post #16162 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post


DWF: Re. 60/inch etc, I have a question: to get anywhere near that, what kind of thread would be used?  I can understand a needle-thin awl and a fine hair instead of a bristle, but what I can't understand is what was strong and supple enough two hundred years ago to hold the leather, while being, say, 1/100th of an inch in diameter?  Maybe he plucked that poor child's whole bonce...

Probably silk....almost have to be silk because there wasn't anything else available. You'd have to talk to June Swann...she has cataloged a number of pairs both in the UK and a few pairs in the States.

I don't know of any photo...there is supposed to be a pair that is stitched at 50 spi in the Los Angeles county Museum but when I went there to see them, it was a holiday weekend and while open, the person in charge of that collection was unavailable.

I have never personally seen a pair stitched at anything above 30sp...which is incredible enough...but Ms Swann is probably the foremost shoe historian in the world and I trust her remarks and observations.
post #16163 of 19808

It is inspiring enough to know that such a thing even existed.  Even 30spi sounds incredible to me.  Thank you as ever for sharing your insight.

post #16164 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

It is inspiring enough to know that such a thing even existed.  Even 30spi sounds incredible to me.  Thank you as ever for sharing your insight.

It is indeed.

BTW, I don't think the thread would have to be as small as 1/100th of an inch...certainly 1/64th of an inch...simply because (and this is pure speculation) once the stitch had been made, the leather could have been push/compressed into itself. The stitches would have been made a little proud by this process...almost like nano-embroidery...but even today bespoke makers do something similar when stitching the welt. It's called "pricking up."
post #16165 of 19808
Wouldn't after a certain amount of stitches more stitches actually be damaging? Like a perforated notebook page?
post #16166 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Wouldn't after a certain amount of stitches more stitches actually be damaging?
This is certainly true when it pertains to SF members named stitches laugh.gif


Just kidding stitchy
post #16167 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

The high end shoe debate is not as cuddly-friendly as TWAT, but the only area of this place that rivals it for quality.

I agree with everything you say, but...

The bit I quoted is very amusing if you are familiar with British slang. crackup[1].gif
post #16168 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Wouldn't after a certain amount of stitches more stitches actually be damaging? Like a perforated notebook page?

Yes of course, on the best modern leathers that occurs at roughly 24+/- spi. But again that's the difference...better quality leather.

And remember...this was being done at a time when the machine was gaining ascendancy in the workplace. The term "wage slave" was a common pejorative used to distinguish the factory worker from skilled Tradesmen. This was a time when the great World's Trade Fairs were in full swing--International Expositions. And all the Trades exhibited the finest examples of their work to demonstrate that nothing the machine could do could possibly equal what the human heart and hand could do. That's where Gold Medal flour got its name.

So all the 64-to-the-inch work was show work...never meant to be worn...or stressed.

I mentioned the example Ms. Swann cited of the shoemaker who wore several pairs of glasses...IIRC, the shoes he was making were for an Exhibition in Philadelphia. It took him three years and he never made another pair again. June never said whether he won a gold medal or not.
post #16169 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pembers View Post


I agree with everything you say, but...

The bit I quoted is very amusing if you are familiar with British slang. crackup[1].gif

 

I am British, and writing is an important part of my living.  These things are never accidental. ;)

post #16170 of 19808
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

I am British, and writing is an important part of my living.  These things are never accidental. wink.gif

Well done, than. biggrin.gif
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