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Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II - Page 1077

post #16141 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post

Not necessarily disagree, but what do you consider nice shoes?

Exotic leather shoes and shoes made with high attention to detail and construction, ie, real fiddleback vs simulated effect, real croc vs printed croc, real vintage Russian calf vs printed, all leather shoes vs leather with plastic stiffeners, etc.

ps, surprised that Carmina and Alden was out together with G&G; they were different league.
post #16142 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

Every chap with enough cash to pile can arm himself with a warehouse full of JLPs, EGs or GGs until he is B/R. Vintage pairs are a different game entirely. The last hundred years has met with the fall of hundreds of makers, whose gems cannot be commissioned or bought in-store. This is why I feel collectors like Isshinryu are crucial: they preserve, value and inform fellow shoe nerds about the the days and shoes of yore. These are the true rough diamonds, waiting to be discovered. I'm out of claret at the moment, otherwise I'd raise a toast to Isshi's collection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

The question every shoe aficionado should ask himself is what draws you to high end shoes?

Is it the leather? By every objective measure the leather in decades and even centuries past was far superior to what we have available to us today.

Is it the workmanship? Even the best of Isshy's collections probably don't represent the unfathomable...almost painfully exquisite...workmanship that was done in the past. I say unfathomable because even for someone who is in the Trade, it is hard to imagine how such fine work could have been done. I say "painfully" exquisite because it hurts to know that if I lived to be a hundred, I could not duplicate such refinement and neither could any other bespoke maker I am aware of (and it's at least partially the quality of the leather--"64 to the inch". Say no more). By comparison, much of what is considered top shelf among bespoke makers...nevermind manufacturers...is rough at best.

Fit? Too much is lost to the expediency of the profit motive to make any rational judgment. The manufacturers can't really compete...don't really try...and bespoke is too dependent on variables such as the level of customer involvement/input--as it always has been.

Finish? Too often finish is not only a matter of fashion trends and vague "artistic" interpretations, it is actually a cover-up for poor quality leathers. The old guys didn't do "finishes" not because they didn't know how, but because they not only didn't need to, they quite deliberately wanted the leather to speak for itself.

What's left comes down to style versus substance...brand name cachet, marketing hype, boxes.

I, personally, cannot conceive of a mind-set that claims to love quality shoes yet cannot see and appreciate the quality of that lost aesthetic and those forgotten standards of workmanship.

I think what we often forget here is that this is just a forum, and this is the typical forum talk, in which we forget there is a real world out there, and 95% of folks think Cole Hann and other similar things is the best, the other 4.9% think Ferragamo regular line at $500+ is really the high end, and then 0.1% is what this forum is talking about. Any C&J is nicer than what 99% of folks wear, and it's the lower end here. Just like any other forum, here we are fanatics, it never ends, in the bike forums some people swear by vintage steel bikes and carbon is garbage, music tubes are great and transistors sucks, in automobiles all is plastic now and so on.

There are many things that were better made years ago, no doubt, but that's the way it is, times change, better made is not the only consideration imo. What you really like is important, your size and how things look on you, the fit and confort etc etc. I like Vass because for the price, it's the better value for me, mto like I want, excellent leather (I'm 50, I started wearing nice shoes 15 years ago, so I've never experienced nor I'm interested in this "superior leather" of old) good service, and excellent fit. I like GG and Alden too, I think they are overpriced but in reality nothing in this world is overpriced as long as they are many people willing to pay for them, why they should lower the price?, I waited 10 months for my whiskey PTB.

Anoter forum stupidity is that as soon as anybody posts a nice expensive pair like GG, lobbs etc, someone says next step is bespoke, why you would travel to get fitted and then pay 3.5-4K for bespoke when there are many shoes that fit perfect?, bespoke is a dream for some people, but not everybody needs that. I come from a country that bespoke suits is the norm for almost everybody, and I swear that BB milano and regent in 38 regular fits me better (with minimum alteration) than all bespoke I had in the past. 1 meter lapels and 3" cuffs pants, ridicuosly short jackets and trousers, pants that squeeze your balls, somebody please tell me where do you see that stuff in the real world?, that's all forum bullshit.

Ok, end of rant, sorry for my bad english and all the thoughts coming out at the same time, on the positive side, like all specialized forums, I have learned a lot from many people but we have to put things in perspective.

Now I want a pair of alligator shoes, that alligator shoe thread is insane.
post #16143 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by isshinryu101 View Post

I understand this view, but in actuality, it is totally misinformed. There is no such thing as an "original style". The shapes of Bestetti, G&G, and all the rest are simply recycled from eras long gone. Of course there is nothing wrong with this... in fact it is a wonderful thing. When one says a general thing such as, "what if you don't like most of the styles/lasts", how to respond? Between the 1920's and the 1950's, they were ALL done. long & sleek, french toes, wide welts, welts cut so close to the uppers that it is amazing, exotics. Every style derby, oxford, norwegian and all the rest one can imagine. Eyelets? 2,3,4,5,6,7... all done. One cannot get caught up in the "Florsheim gunboat" as the epitomy of Vintage Shoes. In fact, that model didn't even come about until the very late 1950's and became popular in the 60's.

If you like sleek and elegant, the 20's & 30's is second to none. Balmoral boots will never be made as finely as they ere in the 1910's & 1920's. Gunboats... late 40's to 50's. Elegant Spades (which BESTETTI calls on heavily for his designs... although he likes to square the toe off a bit on his models), 30's & early 40's. Pointed toes... 50's. French toes... 1940's. They are all there. It is a matter of accepting that while G&G, JLP, and the other top of the top makers represent less than 1% of the modern shoe market. The very best of the best of the eras long past ALSO represent maybe 1%. Many will never get to see and handle them in person. For those that do, it is a real treat!

This said, I enjoy both modern and Vintage styles and makers. The only difference is that when I wear my EG's, I have had the experience of meeting someone else with the same model of shoe on (although color was different). This never happens with my 30's Bostonian Gator & suede spectators (LOL).

Well put. Tout ca change...tout ca reste la meme chose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

Every chap with enough cash to pile can arm himself with a warehouse full of JLPs, EGs or GGs until he is B/R. Vintage pairs are a different game entirely. The last hundred years has met with the fall of hundreds of makers, whose gems cannot be commissioned or bought in-store. This is why I feel collectors like Isshinryu are crucial: they preserve, value and inform fellow shoe nerds about the the days and shoes of yore. These are the true rough diamonds, waiting to be discovered. I'm out of claret at the moment, otherwise I'd raise a toast to Isshi's collection.

You have grasped the essence and importance of the vintage shoe meme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post


Now I want a pair of alligator shoes, that alligator shoe thread is insane.

get yourself a pair of vintage gaters/crocs where you know your getting top shelf reptile I say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnedk View Post

+1

Old shoes are old shoes and thats that. I wouldnt want them and wouldnt want to wear them. They just look goofy like a 1920s/1930s gangster. I understand the last and types of shoes have been reused but all those weird leathers and overall aesthetic does not do it for me.

I used to frequent this thread quiet often and then the vintage shoes started coming in here and i stopped viewing it. I know the mods ruled that all shoes are welcome but i still disagree. Hence, i go directly to the Carmina/Alden/GG threads to see cool shoes.

Childish/churlish comment...but whatever ...it's a free forum.
Edited by meister - 5/12/13 at 7:33pm
post #16144 of 19548
Pardon my shoe porn, GG Wigmore MTO:



Now back to your regularly scheduled debate...
post #16145 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by JubeiSpiegel View Post

Pardon my shoe porn, GG Wigmore MTO:



Now back to your regularly scheduled debate...

No medallion looks interesting. Not sure if I like or hate.

Is the toe a little lighter than the rest of the shoe? If so then I think it would be better without a medallion.
post #16146 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by meister View Post

Well put. Tout ca change...tout ca reste la meme chose.
You have grasped the essence and importance of the vintage shoe meme.

Pretentious, like most posts here
Quote:
Originally Posted by meister View Post


get yourself a pair of vintage gaters/crocs where you know your getting top shelf reptile I say.

The ones Monty posted in the last page are vintage?, purchasing new modern alligator or ostrich shoes is risky? serious questions, I don't know and I'm really interested
post #16147 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinkapur View Post

No medallion looks interesting. Not sure if I like or hate.

Is the toe a little lighter than the rest of the shoe? If so then I think it would be better without a medallion.

Yes, it has the deco black bleaching on the toe, hard to see in the pic...
post #16148 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post


Wouldn't the leather from the resurgence of organic ranches bring back some quality of the good old days?

Well, tanning is part of it and if the tannery is trying to process a hide in as short a time as possible the probability that the result will be second-rate rises correspondingly., irrespective of the raw-hide quality.
post #16149 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Well, tanning is part of it and if the tannery is trying to process a hide in as short a time as possible the probability that the result will be second-rate rises correspondingly., irrespective of the raw-hide quality.

In the spirit of London Lounge and a much lesser extend, Styleforum, maybe it's time for us to do a group buy and source sole organic raised calf hides from Oregon or Northan California, send them to Barkers and have them bespoke tan and finish. Just like the LL fabrics we can have bespoke SF leathers that's as good as the vintages. Hmm...
post #16150 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

In the spirit of London Lounge and a much lesser extend, Styleforum, maybe it's time for us to do a group buy and source sole organic raised calf hides from Oregon or Northan California, send them to Barkers and have them bespoke tan and finish. Just like the LL fabrics we can have bespoke SF leathers that's as good as the vintages. Hmm...

and then you'll get a phone call from LVMH offering to buy the entire stock for a good premium lol8[1].gif
post #16151 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutcracker View Post

and then you'll get a phone call from LVMH offering to buy the entire stock for a good premium lol8[1].gif

crackup[1].gif
post #16152 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

As I understand it, a lot of it is in the way they are raised. Cattle hides are raised on corn and in unstressed environments these days. Again it comes down to profit margins and "time is money."

June Swann (former curator of the Shoe Collection at the Northamptom Museum) brought the issue of 64 stitches to the inch to the attention of my colleagues, if not the world.

In a discussion on the Crispin Colloquy several members actually tried to duplicate that work. At one point June describes a shoemaker working for several years wearing three (?) pairs of glasses just to see the stitches. No one on the Colloquy could get close. Rees--The Art and Mystery of a Cordwainer, by John F. Rees, London, 1813--claimed that to do it he had to use an awl so fine that when he slipped and pierced the base of his thumb it neither hurt nor bled and that as a "bristle" (read "needle) he had used a hair from his young daughter's head.

I tried and I think I got something like forty and I had to wear magnifying glasses. And it was rough/crude, I'm here to tell you.

But the only way it could be done was on kangaroo. And June herself said that kangaroo was possibly the only contemporary leather that might hold the stitch...might. Kangaroo is dense and the strongest leather known to man relative to its thickness. But much of this work was, if I'm not mistaken, done on best quality East India (?) kips.

Processing/tanning has a lot to do with it as well. Baker Leather company is perhaps the only tannery left in the world that leaves hides in the tanning solutions for up to a year. Imagine any modern company deferring profit for that long...regardless of the resulting quality.

Back on point, I've seen shoes that were machine stitched on the vamps that had to be pushing 30 spi. And it was clean work. Tight. No indication of damage to the leather.

Today, with the leathers we have, 20 stitches to the inch risks "postage-stamping", and I suspect most high-end shoemakers are satisfied with 16spi. And perhaps justifiably so, considering the quality of the leather.

Another one of the 19th century "old guys" said that 18 stitches to the inch was "middling work"...and he was referring to outsole/welt stitching! Probably possible with Baker but not with much else.

This is really interesting, thanks for sharing.
Do you know if there's any pics of an old shoe made with 64 stitches to the inch-stitching available on the web?
post #16153 of 19548
Thinking of getting a pair of Brown shoes (for navy suits/friday wear), preferably laced. What do you guys recommend? Budget wise would be around C&J level prices. For a time I thought about the brown gucci horsebit....but couldnt find a brown pair in HK

Before trying them on I was all in on the Burgundy cordovan Alden longwings, but I tried a pair on (thats a tad big) and they just didn't look good, they looked too wide and not as sleek as say my C&J Lowndes...th
post #16154 of 19548
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wongtouski View Post

Thinking of getting a pair of Brown shoes (for navy suits/friday wear), preferably laced. What do you guys recommend? Budget wise would be around C&J level prices. For a time I thought about the brown gucci horsebit....but couldnt find a brown pair in HK

Before trying them on I was all in on the Burgundy cordovan Alden longwings, but I tried a pair on (thats a tad big) and they just didn't look good, they looked too wide and not as sleek as say my C&J Lowndes...th

Have you ever consider Vass?
post #16155 of 19548
Thanks, DWF
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