or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II - Page 954

post #14296 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel222 View Post

Anyone else notice that the Lobb's have an unusal welt? Hopefully some of the more informed shoe construction guys can chime in, but generally a 270 degree welt stops at the back of the waist, where it meets the heel. The pair above start at the front of the waist, so the only portion of the sole attached to the welt is from there forward. I guess the remaining of the sole is glued on . . . Unusual.
Would that be considered a 180 degree welt?
Would that allow a closer bevel because there is no stitching at that part of the sole?
Quote:
Originally Posted by isshinryu101 View Post

That's actually where a Norvegese or Bentivegna 180 degree welt stops. I just noticed this fact and am wondering exactly what it looks like on the inside.


I've wondered about this as well.

I've checked on my Vass with a beveled waist and it looks the same. If I pull at the waist I can just see stitching going through the upper. I wondered if it means the welt has is 180 degrees and the stitching is just from upper to inseam like would be done at the heel.

EDIT: as per Bengal-stripe's response
But I had a look at Carreducker's blog and it looks like the welt continues to 270 degrees, but becomes narrowed and the stitches hidden at the waist.

A Spade sole is slightly different from what I've read.
The welt still runs 270 degrees but it is cut tight and is essentially non functional beyond 180 degrees - there's no stitching from welt to sole at this point. It's justs glued. You can see in the picture that the welt is still there but it's cut so close that you wouldn't be able to stitch it through to the outsole.


Structurally it's not going to affect the shoe because the sole is held in place at the heel and the front of the shoe. Also, on many shoes the waist would be pegged.


Norvegese and Bentivegna often have another midsole in there.
Edited by hendrix - 11/1/12 at 7:47pm
post #14297 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

......it looks like the welt continues to 270 degrees, but it is cut tight and is essentially non functional beyond 180 degrees - there's no stitching from welt to sole at this point. It's justs glued.

The classic English bevelled waist on a handmade shoe utilizes a ‘blind welt’ in the waist section. The welt goes from (heel) ‘breast to breast’, but the welt in the waist section is further off the edge, cut narrower and, I believe, also thinned out in the waist section (not 100% sure about that).
making21.jpg
Welt prepared for a bevelled waist.

When it comes to the stitching (or more correct ‘sewing), it is wider in the waist section (about 4/inch) than the actual sole (about 10/inch). It is also pulled very tight and boned down to sink into the leather.
making71.jpg

I have no actual photograph that shows the stitches within the waist, but they are present. Then the stitch pattern changes for the actual sole from ‘ball to ball’, until the shoemaker has come to the other side, where he utilizes again the sewing.

Once the shoe gets finished, the waist section is cut very narrow, pressed-in (hiding the welt) and shaped. In a skilfully made bevelled waist, you will neither see any stitches, nor a gap. The sole closes very tightly to the shoe, but nevertheless the connection does not rely on glue or on wooden pegs.
post #14298 of 19386
Thanks for the clarification

I've just read it again and it seems that the Carreducker explanation is talking specifically about a Spade sole. I should have clarified.

As you can see at the welt in the waist of the spade-soled shoe, it's too narrow for any welt-to-outsole stitching to occur. This wouldn't be the case with a normal beveled welt.

With my bentivegna constructed shoes, the welt runs 360 degrees and is stitched to the midsole. Following that the midsole is stitched to an outsole but only 180 degrees. I'm pretty sure that the waist from the midsole to the outsole is only glued, and I can see a very small degree of separation in this area.

It hasn't compromised the shoe at all because it's only for the midsole, but it does show why stitching is preferential to glue.

In cowboy boots the welt only runs 180 degrees and I'm pretty sure that the pegging is what maintains the integrity of the waist.
post #14299 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendrix View Post

Thanks for the clarification
I've just read it again and it seems that the Carreducker explanation is talking specifically about a Spade sole. I should have clarified.
As you can see at the welt in the waist of the spade-soled shoe, it's too narrow for any welt-to-outsole stitching to occur. This wouldn't be the case with a normal beveled welt.
With my bentivegna constructed shoes, the welt runs 360 degrees and is stitched to the midsole. Following that the midsole is stitched to an outsole but only 180 degrees. I'm pretty sure that the waist from the midsole to the outsole is only glued, and I can see a very small degree of separation in this area.
It hasn't compromised the shoe at all because it's only for the midsole, but it does show why stitching is preferential to glue.
In cowboy boots the welt only runs 180 degrees and I'm pretty sure that the pegging is what maintains the integrity of the waist.

No, unless Carreducker is doing something idiosyncratic, a spade sole would still be handled the way Bengal describes. A very narrow waist can be accomplished simply by cutting the feather/outside channel deeper in towards the middle of the insole.

Let's say that around the forepart the "feather" is cut 4mm inward from the edge of the insole, in the waist the feather might be cut 6 or even as much as 10mm in from the edge of the insole. That, combined with a narrowing and a thinning of the welt through the waist, leaves both the entire width of the welt and the stitches well under the edge of the insole. The welt would not be visible in some cases.

Some of the photos of Anthony Delos' work show the waist being cut exactly in this way.

Since the outsole channel is cut into the edge of the outsole nearly horizontally the channel in the waist becomes literally invisible.

And yes you're correct, some...most high end bespoke...cowboy boots are welted waist to waist (180 degrees) and then the waist itself is pegged.
post #14300 of 19386
f14b2589_012000x1500.jpeg

e8663c67_022000x1500.jpeg

a5af1b50_032000x1500.jpeg
post #14301 of 19386
bengal, you never stop amazing me. You really ought to write a book in the style of Vass, just with more technical porn for us shoe nerds.

Are there any advantages in a very tight waist other than the obviously cleaner look?
post #14302 of 19386
Cross post from Cliff Roberts thread.

CIMG1758.jpg

CIMG1756.jpg
post #14303 of 19386
post #14304 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

No, unless Carreducker is doing something idiosyncratic, a spade sole would still be handled the way Bengal describes. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
A very narrow waist can be accomplished simply by cutting the feather/outside channel deeper in towards the middle of the insole.
Let's say that around the forepart the "feather" is cut 4mm inward from the edge of the insole, in the waist the feather might be cut 6 or even as much as 10mm in from the edge of the insole. That, combined with a narrowing and a thinning of the welt through the waist, leaves both the entire width of the welt and the stitches well under the edge of the insole. The welt would not be visible in some cases.
Some of the photos of Anthony Delos' work show the waist being cut exactly in this way.
Since the outsole channel is cut into the edge of the outsole nearly horizontally the channel in the waist becomes literally invisible.
And yes you're correct, some...most high end bespoke...cowboy boots are welted waist to waist (180 degrees) and then the waist itself is pegged.

Ah, cool thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VRaivio View Post

bengal, you never stop amazing me. You really ought to write a book in the style of Vass, just with more technical porn for us shoe nerds.
Are there any advantages in a very tight waist other than the obviously cleaner look?

(DW or B-S can correct me here) I think I read somewhere in the Carreducker blog that if anything it's not as structurally secure as a square waist. I also think I read somewhere that the stitches are spaced slightly wider at the waist.
post #14305 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crat View Post


Shoes&Shirts?
post #14306 of 19386

first pair of crispins - thx to the guys at the armoury!

 

 

700

post #14307 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by pic9809 View Post

first pair of crispins - thx to the guys at the armoury!



Great pair, looking for detailed pics.
post #14308 of 19386

C&J and AS

 

1000


1000

post #14309 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodlensboy View Post

f14b2589_012000x1500.jpeg
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

e8663c67_022000x1500.jpeg
a5af1b50_032000x1500.jpeg

 

 

 

 

Nice pictures of the thin welt.  Doesn't look like something that my neighborhood cobblers can properly resole...

post #14310 of 19386
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

Cross post from Cliff Roberts thread.
CIMG1758.jpg
CIMG1756.jpg
nice
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Shoe Damage Report & Shoe P0rn Central - Part II