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post #121 of 170
Just who are these "prominent" forum members to whom y'all keep referring?
post #122 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger02
Willie, thanks for your honesty, and good first post. What I question though is whether the women who previously wouldn't have given you the time of day began talking to you because of your improved appearance, or the improved confidence insipired by your improved appearance.


That's a good question. Not much research has been done on the subject.
Quote:
Overall, the studies suggest that most patients were pleased with the outcome and felt better about themselves.
However, women benefited more than men. Separately, at least one study has proved the obvious, that cosmetic surgery can improve physical attractiveness in the eyes of others. That was based on static images. Confidence can also directly boost dynamic attractivenes, through facial expressions and posture. The opinion here is that an element of general confidence is very hard to change after adolesence. Now the question for willie is, Were you generally confident before the cosmetic work?

Also, "established earners" and "attitude" have been shown to be associated with appearance.
post #123 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by willie
Good point about self perception. Works both ways really. I constantly see relatively unattractive older men hitting on much younger and more attractive women. These foolish men actually believe they have a chance and must endure predictably brutal rejections. So many 50 year old men look in the mirror and see a 25 year old stud.

That seeing a younger version of the self in the mirror might be why many attractive adults who weren't attractive in their teens don't consider themselves good-looking. Some research suggests that body image satisfaction usually doesn't change a lot in adulthood, although older people haven't been studied much.
post #124 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad
To me, it illustrates the fact that human interactions and "attraction" are much more complex, dynamic, and unpredictable phenomena that some people here seem willing to acknowledge.

Undoubtedly. Well said.
post #125 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad
Huh. I'm not questioning the research you're referencing - since I've never read it - but that is counter-intuitive to me, and inconsistent with my own, admittedly ancecdotal, experience. As a teenager I had a pretty low opinion of my body and my overall physical attractiveness. As I moved into early adulthood, I began to eat better, took up running, etc., with a corresponding improvement in self-image. Now, in, er, very advanced young adulthood, I think I have a fairly realistic understanding of which of my physical attributes would generally be considered "above average" and which less so, a perspective on the subjectiveness and relativity of the whole question, and a comfort level with the entire package.

Your story is appreciated.

Quote:
In another longitudinal study, at the University of California (Jones, 1938; Jones, 1965; Jones and Bayley, 1950; Jones & Mussen, 1958), early maturing boys perceived themselves as more positive and were more successful in peer relations than their late-1mturing counterparts. Among the psychological traits correlating positively with early maturation were dominance, independence, and self-control. These characteristics were evident even 1rJhen the subjects reached their thirties.
The quote is from http://education.tomrue.net/iowa/del...dolescence.htm.


It's possible that a negative body image in adolesence is less stable over the years than is a positive one. Neuroticism, however, apparently predicts a persistent low level of satisfaction and serves as a counter-argument to the "increased confidence is why an improved appearance makes a difference" idea. That is, if one extrapolates from the following.
Quote:
Orthodontically treated patients with high neuroticism scores were associated with lower levels of satisfaction with the dentition.


Since it applies to another story that was shared, here is an abstract on the Impact of orthodontics on the psychologic profile of adult patients: a prospective study.
post #126 of 170
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawyerdad
Isn't it possible that some of the "prominent" forum members haven't commented not because they think the subject is too "sensitive" much because they simply don't find it particularly interesting?

While on some level I would like to believe that; I think a more realistic answer would be that the repeated discussion of lapel widths is a good distraction from more sensitive issues, and perhaps more interesting subject matter well at least after you convince yourself that it is. That is what I have found but maybe I am just "projecting" my own cynicism, if so I apologize.
post #127 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Get Smart
Style Forum needs a subforum where only the ridiculously good looking can post in it.
Um, sorry to break it to you Jason, but there already is one... Um, I have nothing to add other than that I heard from third parties that after giving a horrendous seminar and lackluster interview, I got my current position in part because my advisor said that I "look really good in a suit." So there you go. Thank you Emporio Armani, you've served me well. Edit: Oh yeah, I assume that I'm a prominent member, and would have responded earlier, but was in California for a wedding of an attractive couple (maybe I'll post pics of all of us good looking people). As far as other "prominent members" go, Brian is pretty good looking, sort of striking, hipster features, and Steve is very striking in person (sort of like a leftist Falstaff). Edit: To address the original question, I got interested in fashion/style same way I usually get interested in stuff - someone said I couldn't do it (marathons, mountaineering, PhDs, whatever), so I was determined to prove them wrong. Long story involving a boy from small town Ontario (in the 80's) hanging out in the big, fast Hong Kong, and an offhand remark from a very stylish aunt. In any case, had nothing to do with my good looks or lack thereof. BTW, to address the original post again, the same person can seem very attractive and very unattractive in a photograph depending on lighting, expression, angle, etc... I promise to post some photos (including some professional headshots) which make me seem like some Asian Adonis, and some shots that make me look like I fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way (to be fair, the headshots are very contrived, with the work of a pretty decent makeup artist, and the ugly shots are of me about to hurl after a *long* night.)
post #128 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter
Well, we've seen your picture but we're not going to tell you if you are. You have weapons
post #129 of 170
QUOTE=mensimageconsultant]That seeing a younger version of the self in the[ mirror might be why many attractive adults who weren't attractive in their teens don't consider themselves good-looking. Some research suggests that body image satisfaction usually doesn't change a lot in adulthood, although older people haven't been studied much.[/quote]

Most men are not as attractive later in life as they were when younger. In many cases their body changes but their self image does not. This may be one reason why older guys believe it is realistic for them to pursue the same beautiful young women they had success with 20 or 30 years earlier.

Older men who are either exceptionally attractive or wealthy can have success attracting very attractive young women, but realistically we are talking about maybe 5% of older men. The other older men pursuing much younger women are generally making fools of themselves and courting brutal rejection. In general, these men have an unrealistically positive view of their physical desirability.

I once had a girlfriend who was a psychotherapist. She told me that she had numerous patients (both men and women) who had a very unrealistic self image. Unattractive women who expected to meet wealthy professionals and average guys hoping to meet beautiful women. She said that some people have too much self esteem.

Also knew a guy who owned a singles organization. He laughed about short, fat, bald guys avidly pursuing the most beautiful women and complaining about receiving nasty rejections.

Some American men are dealing with this by marrying mail order brides. It is not uncommon to see very unattractive older men with beautiful young Filipino, Chinese, or Russian women who can barely speak English. There are also plenty of guys who take several vacations to Thailand every year. They
Can spend a couple weeks there and have a beautiful young girl every night for about $14. I seem to meet more and more men doing this on a regular basis.
post #130 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensimageconsultant
That's a good question. Not much research has been done on the subject. However, women benefited more than men. Separately, at least one study has proved the obvious, that cosmetic surgery can improve physical attractiveness in the eyes of others. That was based on static images. Confidence can also directly boost dynamic attractivenes, through facial expressions and posture. The opinion here is that an element of general confidence is very hard to change after adolesence. Now the question for willie is, Were you generally confident before the cosmetic work?

Also, "established earners" and "attitude" have been shown to be associated with appearance.

Before I changed my appearance I had a real self image problem. Very difficult to face the fact that I was an unattactive man. This really motivated
me to change my appearance. The entire process took quite a few years, but was well worth it.

My confidence improved as I received better feedback from others. Essentially I found that as I changed my appearance more attractive women began to show interest in me. Over a period of years my self image changed and I became more confident.

I also found that as I became more attractive all my public interactions became easier. People like waiters and store clerks began to treat me with more deference. I have discovered the extent to which the world treats attractive men better. I do not believe this is fair, but iI am sure it is true.
post #131 of 170
Thread Starter 
Willie, I am really struck by your candidness, to the point it makes me wonder how many other members have had, or seriously considered having cosmetic surgery. I personally have only gone as far as purchasing a customized hair piece but I am considering hair implants in the near future, if my budget permits there are some aspects of my face that I would surgically improve, perhaps I should cut down on my shoe purchases as I feel my money would be better spent on changes that would more substantially improve my self-esteem. Thank you for sharing.
post #132 of 170
Another viewpoint:

Quote:
An In-depth Look at Attraction


theApproach VAC Model and How it's Used
to Generate Attraction from Scratch


ave you ever wondered about what causes women to feel that burning desire to be with someone? How come a man with seemingly nothing going on can get women obsessed with them? Why many men sit in “idle mode” with women even though they’ve got lots going on?

In the last five years, the field being labelled as “seduction” has made leaps and bounds. Many men are realizing that they don’t need to accept the limited social skills they were able to figure out themselves through their high school and college years, and are setting to making a real change in their lives.

And yet through it all, no one had defined attraction. You might have read somewhere that doing something created attraction, or that something else was unattractive, but WHY WAS THAT?

It was a million dollar question. That has finally been answered.


***


The bestselling novel “The Game” by Neil Strauss chronicles the journey of one man - Neil, a music critic and freelance journalist. In the book, he goes from being an uber-nerd to a veritable stud with women - despite being 5'6 and unaesthetically pleasing. We’ll use some excerpts from the book as case-studies in explaining attraction.



***


Attraction is a result of three things. Every time someone is attracted to something, these three things will be present. Every time these three things are present in something for someone, that person will be attracted to it.

If these things are present, a woman will be attracted to you. Every single time.

The Three Components of Attraction:

Value, Attainability, and Compliance.



***


Value

“Value” is something that fills a conscious or subconscious need for a person. What is valuable is unique to every single person, but there are a set of traits that are valuable to almost everyone. These traits - like confidence, charisma, and leadership - are valuable to almost any woman. Many traits will be valuable to one type of woman but not another.

There traits that are almost universally valuable (and thus, attractive) should be universally developed, so that you’re perceived as having them with minimal effort on your part.

Many of our techniques focus on these, while some of them are traits from other parts of your life that are good to develop. Twenty of the most common universally valuable traits follow:

Ambition
Charisma*
Confidence*
Creativity
Desire to Reproduce*
Dominance*
Emotionally Steadfast*
Empathy*
Health
Humor*
Intelligence
Leadership*
Passion For Something in Life
Popular*
Protects One’s Own
Quick Reflexes
Quick Wit*
Sociable*
Survival Instincts
Worldliness
The items with asterisks are developed directly by social training. More than half of them - That’s more than any other sub-set of life. Our interactions with people dominate how our value is assessed. Many of the other traits on the list can be demonstrated even if not already possessed. How?



***


Three Ways Value is Perceived


1. Presence: If you’ve ever seen a great comedian, often he’ll walk onto stage, and just STARE at the crowd until - they start laughing. This is a person with the presence of a sense of humor. Likewise, a very confidence person seems to just ooze or eminate confidence. A healthy person need do no more than be present to show he is healthy.

This path takes significant time to develop, but once you’ve done it - you need make no effort. If you develop yourself into a charismatic person, which can be done with training and practice, then you simply need to do no more than show up for people to know you’re charismatic. You have that presence.

2. The Appearance: “A prince need not possess princely qualities. He merely needs the appearance of princely qualities.” - Niccolo Machiavelli

Machiavelli is largely right. If you’re not a leader, you can still develop the body language and walking patterns of a confident leader. This will give you the appearance of being a leader. You’ll be perceived as being a leader which is good for your value right away.

By affecting the appearance of a leader, you will be treated as others by a leader. You’ll become more of a leader over time. Developing the appearance of a trait you don’t have, such as popularity, is a crucial step on the way to becoming popular. This is “Fake it ’till you make it” done correctly, and actually making it.

3. Active Demonstration: Not funny? Tell a joke.

Active demonstrations are excellent ways to show people you have a positive trait that you might not actually yet possess. You can take an action or story from someone who does have it, and use it. Not a naturally sociable person? What if you were taught the exact way a sociable person approaches and interacts with people?

People will think you’re sociable. This is the fastest way to show one person you have a trait about you.

For universal value, it’s in your best interest to cultivative the appearance or actually become valuable with time. It can be tedious to have to tell a funny joke to every person you meet so they know you have a sense of humor. But while you’re learning, this is a powerful way to start.



***


Kinesthetics and Value:


The word kinesthetic means touching. In the seduction community at large, it’s fondly called “kino“. It means touching another person.

If a man wants to demonstrate he’s comfortable with himself, comfortable with others, dominant, and confident, one way to do all that is to kino. The man can learn about the three good kinds of kino - Playful, protective, and incidental. He can learn a few types of kino, like putting his hand on a woman’s lower back to escort her through a room (protective kino), or taking her hand in his, then spinning her salsa style (playful).

Now he can actively demonstrate he’s comfortable, confident, and dominant.

Over time, he’ll automatically do kino. It becomes normal for him to slap a friend on the back, or to lightly touch someone’s elbow during a handshake the way former President Clinton done, a proven kind of incidental kino that makes others feel comfortable around you.

The man now touches people in a confident, friendly way. He’s now developed the appearance that he’s confident, dominant, and comfortable around himself and others. People will perceive him as having those traits even if he doesn’t have the internal “mettle” yet.

And if that man allows his belief system to develop, he’ll come to actually be comfortable with himself and around other people. At this point, no conscious technique or tactic is necessary: He has simply become a person who is comfortable with himself and around others. He is more confident and dominant, and people see it just by being near him. He is now more universally valuable.

And he knows it.



***


Danger and Risk Adversity:
Specifically Valuable Traits


Items like confidence and charisma are universally valuable. Most if not all women want these traits in a man.

Those aren’t it though. Take the example of the “dangerous” man - A guy who seems dangerous, lawless, taking senseless risks and who is just generally out of control.

This guy, leather jacket and long hair in tow, tends to be valuable to younger women who are bored and looking to be defiant.

On the other hand, take a stable risk-adverse guy. He’s got his act together, got a decent job, and doesn’t take risks. While he wouldn’t be very attractive the 19-year-old wild child-type girl, he’s very valuable to decent stable women looking to settle down and raise a family.

This is specific value at work. Some of it is counter-intuitive or surprising. Through field-testing and empirical evidence, us at theApproach have found that many women in their early 30’s who have just gone through a divorce or gotten out of a long term relationship are looking for reckless fun and excitement in their lives. Some popular literature and others’ experiences back us up on that one too…

A lot of men have questions about whether they can get the type of women they want based on certain unchangeable things in their life - Their height, race, age, or birth country.

The answer lies here: While specific value is a huge help to you, a man can get by without having a supposedly “necessary” type of specific value - if he has even MORE universal value.

I was talking to one of my students who I first instructed a few years ago. He’s gone on to become a veritable heartbreaker, I’m sad to say. See, I don’t believe in putting women down hard, I believe in always leaving them better than they were when I found them. But my man - we’ll call him Kaz - lives a busy life and winds up breaking women’s hearts.

Well, Kaz is Asian if you hadn’t realized that. And guess what he hears a lot? “You’re the first Asian guy I’ve ever been attracted to”. But then you know what happens? Post-Kaz-heartbreak, the women start dating Asian guys.

This is how the barriers get broken down. One really high-value guy that’s not normally on the woman’s radar breaks through, and then that specific value - “I only date black guys”, “I only date Asian guys”, “I only date older guys” - is gone. Specific value helps a lot to be sure, but if you’re better than the rest you can get what you want.



***


Attainability


Value is a huge part of attraction. A tremendous part. If you don’t have any value, it doesn’t matter at all if she has a shot at that no-value.

But value is pretty easy to appear to have. You already have some in your life, no doubt. If you’re at all driven or successful in anything you do, you’ve got SOME value. You could get more, or at least appear to have more, and we’re going to help you with that.

This raises the age-old question then - “I’m a great guy, but women don’t seem to like me. Why?”

The answer is quite simply - they don’t see that you’re a great guy FOR THEM.

Attainability converts “value” into “value for her life”. It gives her a chance to believe she can have your value and it can enrich her life.

This confuses some men, especially men that have never had really great girlfriends, or are looking for really elite women that they might perceive as beyond them.

Consider this: What woman in your own life drove you absolutely crazy? Close your eyes and imagine her.

Got her? That girl that kept your up at night?

That you daydreamed about? Know who I’m talking about?

Okay. Got her?

Is it…
Pamela Anderson?
Cindy Crawford?
Lucy Liu?
Mariah Carrey?
Carmen Electra?
Charlize Theron?

Or any other really beautiful actress/model/singer type?

Of course not. It’s probably a neighbor, or a classmate. A girl that lived near you, or was part of your social circle.

The reason is that that woman seemed attainable to you, in a way that a centerfold didn’t.

This comes down to what’s called the Auto-Rejection Mechanism. If someone believes they can’t have something, they’ll rationalize they don’t want it so that they can be happy.

This is the reason that very unattractive women get extremely rude and nasty when hit on in bars - They assume it’s insincere and they have no chance, so they become absolutely rude.

Being attainable does not mean being available - the woman shouldn’t believe that she has you no matter what, and can’t lose you no matter what she does. She should believe she has a shot to get you if you want to attract her.



***


Compliance


Ever been to a carnival? Or an amusement park or anything with those games you pay a couple dollars to play to try to win prizes?

Ever win? Or see a guy who did?

How do they feel?

They pump their fist, get excited. They get a stuffed tiger for a prize, and usually either give that tiger as a sign of affection to a girlfriend or put it on a shelf like a trophy.

This comes down to the Cost-Worth Conception. People think things are worth what they cost.

So no cost? Free? Must be worthless.

That little stuffed tiger the man got so excited about when he won? Would he even take it if it were being given away on the streets as a promotion for a sugary cereal?

Probably not.



***


The more effort a woman puts into an interaction with a guy, with pleasing or impressing him, or handling logistics so they can see each other, the more she’ll be attracted to him. Since his cost is high, his worth must be high too.

But there’s more to compliance than just work and effort.

Listen to a woman talk to her friends who is really, really attracted to her boyfriend. Does she go on, gushing about

how he’s absolutely perfect and she wouldn’t change anything about him if given the change? Oh no!

Women who are very attracted to their boyfriends are often complaining about how he’s such a jerk, or doesn’t take care of her, or has bad habits or whatever else.

The reason is that accepting things she doesn’t like is compliance too. If she accepts something about him that’s not ideal in her mind, then he must be even MORE worth it in his other areas. That’s another reason Kaz was such a heartbreaker - The girls would think, “I don’t normally like Asian guys. He must be something really special.” Then he’d still see other women, have condom wrappers at his place, lipstick on wine glasses and all sorts of unsubtle things like that. And a few women would stop seeing him right then, but of the girls that stuck around - they got even more attracted.

When a woman is forced to work for something, she’ll feel like she deserves it and want it even more. To have a woman really attracted to you, she’ll need to feel like she deserves you. This comes down to attainablity, which is the feeling she can have you, and compliance, which is working to get you.

http://www.the-approach.net/n-lesson-2-vac.php
post #133 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by thealbatross
Willie, I am really struck by your candidness, to the point it makes me wonder how many other members have had, or seriously considered having cosmetic surgery. I personally have only gone as far as purchasing a customized hair piece but I am considering hair implants in the near future, if my budget permits there are some aspects of my face that I would surgically improve, perhaps I should cut down on my shoe purchases as I feel my money would be better spent on changes that would more substantially improve my self-esteem. Thank you for sharing.

Cosmetic surgery seems a bit drastic; perhaps you should begin with a more cautious approach... an image consultant perhaps? Do you know any?

Anyway, fascinating discussion for your entree into SF...
post #134 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by thealbatross
Willie, I am really struck by your candidness, to the point it makes me wonder how many other members have had, or seriously considered having cosmetic surgery. I personally have only gone as far as purchasing a customized hair piece but I am considering hair implants in the near future, if my budget permits there are some aspects of my face that I would surgically improve, perhaps I should cut down on my shoe purchases as I feel my money would be better spent on changes that would more substantially improve my self-esteem. Thank you for sharing.

Hmmm... having lived in LA for half a dozen years, and interacted in circles where plastic surgery was common, especially for the women, I've come to the conclusion that cosmetic surgery generally does not enhance a person's beauty exceptional in exceptional cases - a cleft palate, etc... Otherwise, the "dynamic" personality that mensimageconsultant.com wrote about is much more striking. LA is full of pretty boys (and girls), all more objectively perfect looking (see Ryan Seacrest) than a Uma Thurman, or an Al Pacino or a Johnny Depp. However, they don't have nearly the same presence as the latter. Models are chosen the same way - because everyday good looks and "something special" are miles apart. I'd work on body language and establishing a distinct physicality rather than concentrate on how pretty (or not) your face is.
post #135 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
Um, sorry to break it to you Jason, but there already is one...


I knew there was talk going on behind my back.
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