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NYU Professor Responds to a Douche Student's Email - Page 3

post #31 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
Yes and no. Faculty make or break it based on research and publications. So, the students who give them real relevance are their graduate students. Really, for many, if not most, faculty, teaching is considered unpleasant duty. There are exceptions (and these tend to be the engaging professors.) There is an unofficial rule at Caltech that if you get a teaching award, that you will not get tenure.

I hate the "consumer" model of higher education. It simply doesn't work.

Does the contempt for teaching tend to vary by discipline? I have a few friends who are professors, or on that path, and they all seem to enjoy teaching as much as researching. The research is important, to be sure, but I've never gotten the feeling that they would prefer to be researchers without the hassle of teaching.

It may well be that I just happen to know academics who love to teach, but I'm just curious as to whether your experience has revealed any tendecies by discipline. It would seem to me that someone like a social scientist might be more likely to enjoy interaction with students more than, say, a chemist, mostly owing to the nature of what they study/teach.
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post #32 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftover_salmon View Post
I don't get it, really. He came late to a class. People come late -- really late -- to class all the time and I have yet to see a professor kick anyone out for it. And I doubt this is a 15-person seminar; it's probably some 50+ person lecture.

And his policy sucks, too. If a student wants to slip in quietly or leave quietly halfway through lecture, that's his problem if he wants to miss half the class. They're all adults; no need to treat students like grade schoolers.

Good luck trying that in a meeting.
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post #33 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
Good luck trying that in a meeting.

But this isn't a meeting. It's a stupid MBA marketing class.
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post #34 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftover_salmon View Post
But this isn't a meeting. It's a stupid MBA marketing class.

...and once they graduate, MBA students do what?
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post #35 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
...and once they graduate, MBA students do what?

In this economy?

Wait tables.
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post #36 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post
In this economy?

Wait tables.

For 250k a year.
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post #37 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post
In this economy?

Wait tables.

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post #38 of 150
2/23/10 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas View Post
...and once they graduate, MBA students do what?

If you're trying to say the professor's teaching him a lesson, I'm not buying it. As an MBA student, this person probably spent some time working in between college and Stern...s/he knows the difference between class and the real world. Again, trying to ingrain "real world habits" in class is something elementary school teachers do when they tell students to cover their mouths when they yawn.
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post #39 of 150
2/23/10 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I've taken classes at everything from community college to a top five grad program. I have to say, some of the best actual teachers I found, were in community colleges. People with Ph.D's from good schools, obviously intelligent and engaged. Some of my crappiest profs were at my undergrad. Seems almost like good teaching happens at either end of a Bell curve with the dross in the middle, when it comes to instituational prestige.

Professors at top end institutions also get the best students, by-and-large, and the ones who enjoy teaching really enjoy the caliber of the students and the idea that they are helping to form the minds of the next generation of top... everything, in some cases.

Teachers at community colleges with top flight credentials often left academia of their own volition - they really enjoy teaching, and don't like the rat race of modern academia.

Professors at middling institutions are in the middle of the rat race - they dont have everything, but they have enough to lose to be stressed. Also, even the most mediocre academic was probably a top student, and often from a good school, so faculty at middle-of-the-road institutions are often frustrated by the lack of intellectual curiousity or firepower in their students. And they don't enjoy the challenge the way the second group I described do.

Me, I enjoy teaching. But I'm also a sort of anomaly within academia anyway, for any number of reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftover_salmon View Post
I don't get it, really. He came late to a class. People come late -- really late -- to class all the time and I have yet to see a professor kick anyone out for it. And I doubt this is a 15-person seminar; it's probably some 50+ person lecture.

And his policy sucks, too. If a student wants to slip in quietly or leave quietly halfway through lecture, that's his problem if he wants to miss half the class. They're all adults; no need to treat students like grade schoolers.

It's disrespectful, that's the problem. You don't show up for practice 15 minutes late and then walk off the field/out of the gym before the coach says so. Same deal.
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post #40 of 150
2/23/10 at 8:03pm
Sweet!

a long winded, self-important professor who gets off on dressing down his students uses lame, cliched internet snark to go after some lazy, self important grad student!

I know the types, and am glad I no longer have to have daily contact with them anymore.
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post #41 of 150
2/23/10 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrG View Post
Does the contempt for teaching tend to vary by discipline? I have a few friends who are professors, or on that path, and they all seem to enjoy teaching as much as researching. The research is important, to be sure, but I've never gotten the feeling that they would prefer to be researchers without the hassle of teaching.

It may well be that I just happen to know academics who love to teach, but I'm just curious as to whether your experience has revealed any tendecies by discipline. It would seem to me that someone like a social scientist might be more likely to enjoy interaction with students more than, say, a chemist, mostly owing to the nature of what they study/teach.

Some professors like teaching more than others. In the hard sciences, the pressure to bring in money is greater, so the more onerous and unrewarding teaching seems. In softer fields and the humanities, you get less of this. But every faculty member I know (and I know lots), hate, hate, hate, entitled students. I know of one dean of graduate studies at a top 5 school who withdrew an offer to a prospective student when that prospective graduate student tried to negotiate a higher stipend, bringing up an offer from a considerably lower ranked school. His words - "Students are not employees or consumers. They are students. If you don't understand that you are here to learn, and bring that type of attitude with you, you aren't a good fit for this school. Enjoy your time at X."
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post #42 of 150
2/23/10 at 8:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
It's disrespectful, that's the problem. You don't show up for practice 15 minutes late and then walk off the field/out of the gym before the coach says so. Same deal.
I agree with this. I was always running between work and classes and I was never late for class. There were some students that would walk in 20 minutes late without fail every single class. This one guy had a particularly lazy attitude about him. He'd come in with his baggy jeans and baseball cap on backwards, plop his bag down, making absolutely no effort to be quiet. I wanted to fucking smack him on more than one occasion. That said, I think the professor comes off as a douche in this case.
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post #43 of 150
2/23/10 at 8:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post
I've taken classes at everything from community college to a top five grad program. I have to say, some of the best actual teachers I found, were in community colleges. People with Ph.D's from good schools, obviously intelligent and engaged. Some of my crappiest profs were at my undergrad. Seems almost like good teaching happens at either end of a Bell curve with the dross in the middle, when it comes to instituational prestige.

Earlier, I mentioned Ken Bain. In his book What the Best College Teachers Do, he and his group found that the best teachers tended to also be very involved researchers. It's not surprising that a good teacher knows his/her stuff, but that sort of goes against the stereotype. That is most certainly not to say that all good researchers are good teachers. As LA Guy said, teaching is simply a burdon for some, and I've known plenty of those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
Some professors like teaching more than others. In the hard sciences, the pressure to bring in money is greater, so the more onerous and unrewarding teaching seems. In softer fields and the humanities, you get less of this. But every faculty member I know (and I know lots), hate, hate, hate, entitled students. I know of one dean of graduate studies at a top 5 school who withdrew an offer to a prospective student when that prospective graduate student tried to negotiate a higher stipend, bringing up an offer from a considerably lower ranked school. His words - "Students are not employees or consumers. They are students. If you don't understand that you are here to learn, and bring that type of attitude with you, you aren't a good fit for this school. Enjoy your time at X."

That's pretty awesome. I once had a student who was so arrogant he only sent out one resume upon graduation. It was to Target Corporation. When I expressed surprise, he said "I'm not worried. I interned there last year and they liked me." I tried explaining -- as if he didn't know -- that Target Corp is pretty big, but he gave it no thought. He also wound up getting no job. Stupid fuck.
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post #44 of 150
2/23/10 at 8:26pm
Come on, do a search on the professor. It's obvious he has an ego. Maybe if he was Damodaran that flipped out it would be more acceptable, but in a MBA marketing class? What a joke.
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post #45 of 150
2/23/10 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy View Post
Professors at top end institutions also get the best students, by-and-large, and the ones who enjoy teaching really enjoy the caliber of the students and the idea that they are helping to form the minds of the next generation of top... everything, in some cases.

Teachers at community colleges with top flight credentials often left academia of their own volition - they really enjoy teaching, and don't like the rat race of modern academia.

Professors at middling institutions are in the middle of the rat race - they dont have everything, but they have enough to lose to be stressed. Also, even the most mediocre academic was probably a top student, and often from a good school, so faculty at middle-of-the-road institutions are often frustrated by the lack of intellectual curiousity or firepower in their students. And they don't enjoy the challenge the way the second group I described do.

Me, I enjoy teaching. But I'm also a sort of anomaly within academia anyway, for any number of reasons.



It's disrespectful, that's the problem. You don't show up for practice 15 minutes late and then walk off the field/out of the gym before the coach says so. Same deal.

Sounds like you agree with my assessment. I agree about the quality of student thing. No doubt, good students bring out the best in good teachers.
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