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The OCBD collar roll thread - Page 25

post #361 of 426

Clothes are worn in three dimensions, but the patterns are drawn, the cloth is cut - and then sewn - in two dimensions. In male clothing, three dimensionality is seen in the fit of the garment when worn. In addition, men’s dress wear has two  “free-standing” three dimensional elements. One is the lapel roll on full-canvas suit coats and sport jackets. The other is the collar roll on button down shirts. Everyone knows of Flusser’s assertion that the button-down collar is the most casual of business shirts. I won’t argue that point, but if I’m wearing a great collar roll on my button-down shirt, and sportin’ a wonderful bloom to my jacket lapel, I feel I'm on top of the world! 

 

So, this post is about collar roll and how designers, cutters, and seamstresses achieve collar roll. I’ll take four measurements of collar elements of six different makers of button down shirts. Those makers are:

Brooks Brothers

J. Press

Lands' End  (glory days)

Knottery

Kamakura

Mercer

These are all from my closet and were purchased new by me. All are 16.5X34.

 

I will show pictures of the four measurements I’m taking, using a Mercer shirt. Every shirt will be measured the same way and I’ll provide the same set of measurements for each maker. Finally, I’ll show the differences and similarities of each collar roll via a picture of me in each of the above shirts. 

 

Though I believe this is a fair comparison of the shirts of these makers on me, it does not resolve issues of different builds on different guys. If you are a) long-necked or b) shallow or bull chested, your own body measurements will produce a different look for these shirts than they do on me. YMMV!

 

Finally, I’ll be wearing a closed top button on each shirt and a a four-in-hand tie in each picture. When knowlegeable folks talk about collar roll on button-down shirt collars, they're ALWAYS talking about a fully buttoned shirt with a four-in-hand tie. The combinations of S curves, Bell Curves, and Arcs are a central part of the Ivy League Look. 

 

I should have this up in the next three or four days.

 

 

post #362 of 426

^^Looking forward to your reviews, Billax.  :fonz:

post #363 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolarrow View Post

^^Looking forward to your reviews, Billax.  fing02%5B1%5D.gif

Me too. Very nice posts. Please keep them coming!
post #364 of 426

Measurement Matrix of Button-Down collars:

 

Code: OC = O'Connell's, BB = Brooks Bros., JP = J. Press, LE =Lands' End, ME = Mercer, KA= Kamakura, KN = Knottery

 

Here's how the measurements were derived:

All pictured measurements were of a Mercer shirt;

 

Collar length:

 

Collar angle:


Button width:

 

Button depth:

 

As you look at the measurement matrix, you'll probably notice what you think of as a strange shaped collar or two. You wouldn't be wrong! I'll get pictures of the seven shirts up in the next couple of days and you'll be able to see if your mental translation from a number set to a picture is on the mark! 

post #365 of 426

Here are the seven button-down shirts whose collar roll dimensions are covered in the shirt Matrix. I elected to use a heavy tie which shows to advantage with larger collars, while disadvantaging shirts with less voluptuous measurements. Shirts with smaller proportions deserve to have a lighter weight tie, but for purposes of this comparison, I did not level the playing field.

 

Shirt #1

Mercer


Shirt #2

The Knottery


Shirt #3

J. Press

 

Shirt #4

Brooks Brothers OCBD


Shirt #5

Land's End OCBD


Shirt #6

O'Connell's end-on-end BD


Shirt #7

Kamakura OCBD

post #366 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billax View Post

Here are the seven button-down shirts whose collar roll dimensions are covered in the shirt Matrix. I elected to use a heavy tie which shows to advantage with larger collars, while disadvantaging shirts with less voluptuous measurements. Shirts with smaller proportions deserve to have a lighter weight tie, but for purposes of this comparison, I did not level the playing field.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Shirt #1
Mercer




Shirt #2
The Knottery




Shirt #3
J. Press



Shirt #4
Brooks Brothers OCBD




Shirt #5
Land's End OCBD




Shirt #6
O'Connell's end-on-end BD



Shirt #7
Kamakura OCBD


This comparison confirms my personal preference, anathema as it is for die-hard OCBD originalists (cough vox cough), being that I prefer a more contemporary button-down a la Kamakura, which has a slightly wider buttoning stance. I.E. in shape, it's more akin to a semi-spread collar with buttons instead of a point collar with buttons.
post #367 of 426
Mercer is the best one, IMO.

I like Kamakura, but compared to the others, it's a little #menswear-y
post #368 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Mercer is the best one, IMO.

I like Kamakura, but compared to the others, it's a little #menswear-y

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billax View Post

Here are the seven button-down shirts whose collar roll dimensions are covered in the shirt Matrix.

Derek I don't think you've quite come to grips with the fact that #menswear is a simulated reality, which Billax has thankfully labeled plainly for us as the shirt Matrix.
post #369 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossrockss View Post


Derek I don't think you've quite come to grips with the fact that #menswear is a simulated reality, which Billax has thankfully labeled plainly for us as the shirt Matrix.

Spread button-downs look like the collar is giving birth to a tie.
post #370 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post

Spread button-downs look like the collar is giving birth to a tie.

I will have to get out my protractor tonight and measure my Propercloth "Soft Ivy Button Down" to see if it's in birthing territory or not, since as of now it's outside of the Shirt Matrix. What is your ideal range for an angle? If it's 42° would that be too birth-y for you? I'll report back tonight
post #371 of 426

Thanks @Billax for the great post.  I just got back from teaching the first day of summer school.  Maybe this can be tomorrow's lesson.  

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


Spread button-downs look like the collar is giving birth to a tie.

:rotflmao:

 

I love a good collar roll myself.  I think it may be easier to say which of these I don't like.  

 

The J. Press looks asymmetrical.  It could just be this particular shirt or the way it's cinched.   

 

The BB is devoid of roll.  I find that my BB OCBD do that weird bunching at the top as well.  I've gotten use to it at this point.  

 

The button width is too close on the OC IMO.  

 

I like the Mercer roll the most, but it's a no go on my skinny frame.  

 

Given fit, roll and price, I'm for Kamakura.  I wish the button width wasn't so wide to be honest.  

 

 

The new kids on the block in terms of collar roll are Lean Garments, Spier and Mackay, Miler menswear, and Proper Cloth.  I have several S&M BD shirts.  They have a nice roll and the fit and price are outstanding IMO.  I highly recommend them.  I've heard good things about LG, but they only have alpha sizing and their small has a 15.4" collar.  A wee big for me, but it may shrink.  I haven't tried it yet.  I'd love to see more examples of MM and PC.  

 

Roll on, homies.  

post #372 of 426
They're all good. I like (almost) any BD with a roll.

If you're used to the rule of collar points being close to your jacket lapels, that spread collar might work better for you. Or if you're really into e-Talian #menswear.

I have a Kamakura shirt, but I mostly wear it without a tie. Mercer is the best of the bunch, IMO. Supposedly they updated their patterns to allow slimmer fits (I think the update was made last year?), but I haven't tried.

@mossrockss, please film your neck while eating, so we can see that spread button-down giving birthing motions whenever you swallow.
post #373 of 426
I have two shirts from Mercer and Sons, both using their slimming option. The first shirt has a 15" collar and a 14" neck-size-body with a 4" waist taper, while the second grey shirt is 15.5/14.5 with a 6" waist taper, which is a half size up. For reference, I'm about a 36R suit size on a skinny day. While the shirt is voluminous even after the slimming, especially when you look at the chest and waist measurements on paper, I think it's part of M&S' intent to not have their shirts fit too tight or trendy and focusing towards the relaxed nature of wearing their shirts. I have come to appreciate my shirts from them, though of course fit is up to everyone's personal preference. The Oxford material from them is extremely beefy/hefty in a good way, and it gives me a nice satisfaction whenever I iron them (fabric feels good and the single needle construction is clean and precise, making it easy to iron)

So I would say to those that have qualms about the Mercer shirt being too big, give their slimming option a try. While it might not fit as clean or make you look slimmer as Italian shirts, it has a certain charm to it.




Edited by ezlau - 7/5/16 at 2:50pm
post #374 of 426
I used to be the Head Dress Shirt Buyer at Brooks Brothers and left to become the King of the Oxfords at Lands' End. I was the last person to know the secret to the famous Brooks Brothers roll to the Polo collar.
The British Marks & Spencer destroyed all those Brooks Brothers traditions. The Italian Luxotica group that now owns BB is doing a good job bringing those traditions back, but no correct roll to their button-down shirts.

Being in charge of woven shirts at Lands' End, our shirts always had a split yoke, locker loop, and a pretty good roll, but not the BB roll that F. Scott Fitzgerald and others waxed poetic about.

In my professional opinion, the Mercer shirts exhibit the best, classic roll. The Brooks Brothers shirts, despite the huge tradition and following, exhibit the worst roll to the collar!
post #375 of 426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billax View Post
 

 

 

Shirt #4

Brooks Brothers OCBD


 

 

I apologize if I missed it, but is this the new Brooks Brother's unlined OCBD?

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