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Site Topics - Part II - Page 792

post #11866 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang66 View Post

Do you have any idea when "valet" came into common use?

Probably right after 1066 considering what it refers to. I can't imagine the new Norman nobles would have used a different word for their vassals.
post #11867 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang66 View Post


Do you have any idea when "valet" came into common use? If it was before about the 14th century then most of the English nobility would have been either Anglo Norman speakers or bilingual English/French speakers. So would there perhaps have been an upstairs downstairs division of pronunciation with the downstairs pronunciation vallit, especially in Britain, winning out until the mid/late 20th century? The re-emergence of vallay then possibly due to the ubiquity of American influence allied with the decline in the actual number of gentlemen's gentlemen?

 

Not sure about the origin of "valet" in British English, but my theory is that the "vallay" pronunciation won out in America because we didn't actually get the word from the English. We got it from the French -- either in parallel with, or subsequently to, the British borrowing of the word. Had we picked up the word from the British, we'd probably be pronouncing it "vallit" to this day (same thing with the similar "claret").

 

A relatively small slice of upper-crust Americans probably picked up the word from the British prior to the 20th Century, but the word (re)emerged into prominence in the American vernacular -- along with the "vallay" pronunciation -- in the early 20th.

post #11868 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post

Probably right after 1066 considering what it refers to. I can't imagine the new Norman nobles would have used a different word for their vassals.

Sorry should have been clearer, common "English" use? Also in 1066 it probably referred to a squire or young nobleman in training rather than a man servant who was "in service" for life. Although the later probably evolved from the former.
Edited by Fang66 - 1/16/13 at 10:25am
post #11869 of 14833
Shortly thereafter, I'm sure. Norman French became the official language of the courts, which is why we eat roast beef (both words from Norman French) but oxtail soup instead of beef tail soup (ox coming from Anglo-Saxon). Oxtail soup's name (or at least the 'oxtail' part) was preserved since the only people that ate it were peasants who didn't speak the language of the courts.

There's a good poem by William Dunbar illustrating the strange language trifecta occurring during the High Middle Ages in England (Anglo-Saxon the language of the people, French of the courts, Latin of the clergy). Note the etymology of science (Latin, commonly used at the universities that were at that time run by the church) vs. craft (Anglo-Saxon) vs. sapience (likely coming from Old French) and ditto (with different order) for the following lines.

To speik of science, craft, or sapience,
Of vertew, morall cunnyng, or doctryne,
Of jure, of wisdome, or intelligence,
Of every study, lair, or disciplyne -
All is bot tynt or reddy for to tyne,
Nocht using it as it suld usit be,
The craft excersing, considering nocht the fyne.
Ane peralous seiknes is vane prosperité.


more here

Anyway, this is probably enough for trans-mod.
Edited by why - 1/16/13 at 10:52am
post #11870 of 14833
there was a time when I though oxen were different animals than cattle.
post #11871 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post

there was a time when I though oxen were different animals than cattle.

 

Apropos of nothing, I was delighted and childishly amused to discover that an individual cow is known in the ranching and commodities trades as "a beef," and that the plural of such is "beeves."

post #11872 of 14833
I sparked an interesting conversation. Talk about how great I am!!! Everything must be about me!
post #11873 of 14833
why is now my official favorite poster (sorry matt; sorry manton)
post #11874 of 14833
Now that that's setlled, can we all agree that the plural of bathtub be bathtubim? And photograph should be photographim?
post #11875 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by foodguy View Post

why is now my official favorite poster (sorry matt; sorry manton)


DUDE
post #11876 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by why View Post

Shortly thereafter, I'm sure. Norman French became the official language of the courts, Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
which is why we eat roast beef (both words from Norman French) but oxtail soup instead of beef tail soup (ox coming from Anglo-Saxon). Oxtail soup's name (or at least the 'oxtail' part) was preserved since the only people that ate it were peasants who didn't speak the language of the courts.

There's a good poem by William Dunbar illustrating the strange language trifecta occurring during the High Middle Ages in England (Anglo-Saxon the language of the people, French of the courts, Latin of the clergy). Note the etymology of science (Latin, commonly used at the universities that were at that time run by the church) vs. craft (Anglo-Saxon) vs. sapience (likely coming from Old French) and ditto (with different order) for the following lines.

To speik of science, craft, or sapience,
Of vertew, morall cunnyng, or doctryne,
Of jure, of wisdome, or intelligence,
Of every study, lair, or disciplyne -
All is bot tynt or reddy for to tyne,
Nocht using it as it suld usit be,
The craft excersing, considering nocht the fyne.
Ane peralous seiknes is vane prosperité.


more here

Anyway, this is probably enough for trans-mod.

Actually I don't think it did. For example William used English and Latin for most of his documents, likely to push his claim for legitimacy to the succession, and the legal system remained in English (proceedings often conducted and documented in French).

Thanks for the interesting link, and yes, this is probably enough for trans-mod.
post #11877 of 14833
No, keep going. Good stuff.
post #11878 of 14833
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLMountainMan View Post

Now that that's setlled, can we all agree that the plural of bathtub be bathtubim? And photograph should be photographim?

 

I've always felt that the singular form of pornography should be "pornograph." 

 

"What are you doing in there?!"

"Oh, just looking at some interesting pornographs. Very arty and stylized."

post #11879 of 14833
Anyone else getting an ad for Zulily on every page? Is StyFo trying to tell me something about my weight?


post #11880 of 14833
maybe the ad people misplaced it in the banner as opposed to the Would you hit it? thread puzzled.gif
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