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The WAYWT Discussion Thread - Page 5151  

post #77251 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingJulien View Post

There are some other examples - I think you've had some good outfits with them, and shuit and heirloom on SZ have done similar looks that were really well-done.  I think it's less a function of ethnicity and more one of (perceived) comfort - if you wear skinny jeans 28 days out of the month and skirt-like hakamas the other 2-3, there's a disharmony there, especially if none of the other cultural elements (Japanese, African, whatever) of what's being referenced are present.  If you're not Nigerian, don't live in Nigeria, don't really have much other interest in Nigerian culture, and dress Western 95% of the time, wearing that outfit you described every once in awhile is odd; to me, anyway, obviously a lot of people don't agree.  Anyway, even if I think it doesn't work more often than not I think it's cool that you guys are trying it.

edit - though I guess you could ask "how do you know those things aren't there" and the answer is I don't, I'm just basing this on what I can see.  

What the fuck are we allowed to dress in, then? this is a pretty narrow view of fashion, and of global culture in general. There's a difference between saying "well, I think that's beautiful but i live in the Bible Belt and I'll get my fucking ass kicked by blue collar types or oil derrick workers on the way home from work and it's just not worth it" - which is at least honest - and saying that you shouldn't wear something because it's "not from your culture." Or whatever the fuck sort of half-assed intellectualism you're trying to put together over there. Maybe your words aren't coming out right, but right now you sound like an idiot. Do you mean that people should understand what they're wearing? Because that would make a bit more sense, to a limited extent, but then we might as well have another discussion of hipsterism and the random appropriation of cultural signifiers, which is perhaps more relevant, but I don't know that we can handle it at this point. If you live in a climate that supports it, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just wear what you like. I'd feel like a cock wearing a kandora around a place where it's culturally significant, but reading through any expat forum will show you that it's done.

It's particularly amusing that this discussion revolves around Parker's wardrobe choices - to all appearances, he lives on a coast in a tolerant, global, fairly cosmopolitan city and embraces what he has described as a "coastal" style. Considering he seems to wear Yohji pretty damn regularly, I don't really understand the complaint. I'm not seeing any problem with that. Even if it were Robbie who had all of a sudden decided to wear a rick skirt, I don't see a problem with changing things up if you feel like it.
post #77252 of 117670
There's always consequences to how you dress -- good or bad. In the US, even the worst consequences aren't particularly bad (someone thinks you're gay or less of you), but in other cultures and societies the consequences can be much harsher, even life-threatening. People on fashion sites always try to argue that you should be able to where whatever you want anywhere and if you don't want to it's your own personal hangups, but this is only in very select segments of the world.
post #77253 of 117670
^^


Teger, someone "thinking that you're gay" is hardly the worst thing that can happen. Shit like Matthew Shepard (who didn't wear skirts as far as I know) happens all the time. Trans* people get mugged, murdered, and raped all the time.

You're bringing up an entirely new discussion when you move from discussing wether or not a fit with a skirt (or skirt-like pant—like Parker's) can look cool (or "fashionable") to discussing the social consequences of actually wearing that fit.

No one here said anything amounting to if you wear that fit you'll get beat up!—people simply expressed their reactions to the fit. Some people liked it, some people didn't, and enough people said dumb things that warranted intervention. Calling attention to those who might suffer in the "third world"—O those poor people whose survival we mustn't harm with our fashion choices—is not at all what's at stake here. Come on man, you should be far more attentive to this.
post #77254 of 117670
fyi the conceptual forest is genderless so if you want to wear stuff without starting a 3 page discussion about what white cis males consider correct gender politics then just put all your fits between a ~*~*Conceptual Forest Shroud*~*~ and nothing can go wrong smile.gif

parker that didn't look so good with the supergas or tank, imo
post #77255 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by thewho13 View Post

^^
Teger, someone "thinking that you're gay" is hardly the worst thing that can happen. Shit like Matthew Shepard (who didn't wear skirts as far as I know) happens all the time. Trans* people get mugged, murdered, and raped all the time.
You're bringing up an entirely new discussion when you move from discussing wether or not a fit with a skirt (or skirt-like pant—like Parker's) can look cool (or "fashionable") to discussing the social consequences of actually wearing that fit.
No one here said anything amounting to if you wear that fit you'll get beat up!—people simply expressed their reactions to the fit. Some people liked it, some people didn't, and enough people said dumb things that warranted intervention. Calling attention to those who might suffer in the "third world"—O those poor people whose survival we mustn't harm with our fashion choices—is not at all what's at stake here. Come on man, you should be far more attentive to this.

what? a question of stakes (and consequences) is fundamentally part of this discussion -- you can't discuss gender roles in only the intellectually abstract.. we are not merely discussing wether or a not a skirt fit can ever be fashionable (or at least, I hope we've moved past that, because as I said that's a stupid thing to say), but instead why Parker's look generated so much commentary and how acceptable men wearing feminine outfits is in general.

also, I don't think your fashion choice can 'harm the third world', i think the fashion choices of those in the third world have consequences that are greater than those of us in the first world. treating the third world as only a proxy of the first world without its own independent fashion community is redonk.
post #77256 of 117670
I don't believe you understood my point...
post #77257 of 117670

You make good points synth.  I am not saying Parker is or should be uncomfortable wearing that; in fact I'm almost positive he's not.

 

Your example with the kandora is actually exactly what I was trying to say.  Should you be able to wear hakama pants or a flowy maxi skirt or a yarmulke if you want to? Of course.  But in a thread where we post outfits and subjective opinions about those outfits, it's also fine to say that I don't think it looks good without trampling anyone's right to do as they please.  I don't think it's inappropriate or offensive, I just think it often looks bad.

 

I'm talking about that look in general by the way, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing Parker over multiple posts because he's one of the nicest guys on the forum.

post #77258 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivwri View Post

I think like Ben said, this seems to be more of a function of Western ideals of masculine dress than anything else. The male traditional costume from my mother's place in Nigeria involves a long wrap around "skirt" and a lace see-through long shirt. To my eyes, none of the men in this outfit look "feminine" in the slightest. In the case of Thamanyah he is just re-purposing his own traditional outfits, he is not trying to put men in dresses. Fashion designers just seem to be drawing from a wider pool of references which to my own eye is great. It is interesting that Kingjulien believes that shah is the only one who looks good in hakamas, I wonder whether that is because shah's ethnicity makes it seem more appropriate to him on some subconscious level.
I would probably have gone for a looser and longer tank myself, but in my head I think Parker's outfit would look way better in motion, especially in the side shot.

actually, to be completely honest, i think kingjulien is just being dumb as usual. though, to be fair, parker's hakama fit was a miss for me, too.
post #77259 of 117670
Can someone from the UK explain to me how you have cream tea without looking like a complete fucking moron? You put everything onto your scone with the spoon, right?

KzRfjl.jpg
PcjDwl.jpg
post #77260 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

Can someone from the UK explain to me how you have cream tea without looking like a complete fucking moron? You put everything onto your scone with the spoon, right?

close your eyes and open your mouth
post #77261 of 117670
post #77262 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urthwhyte View Post

I'm sure someone like Fuuma or sipang can comment to this better than I, but skirting for men has only seen a resurgence on the runway in the past ~3 years. It was a big thing for SS09 with Galliano, Rei, and Rick all walking stuff, and more recently we have Thamanyah and Rad Hourani. Despite its visibility in collections, it's a resurrection that has been confined to the runway; buyers are hardly picking them up in droves, even among stores with more "aggressive" selections. The rare streetstyle shot is featured for the novelty as often as for being a good outfit. I have to agree with AFL's statement that "A dude in a skirt is transgressive, and will be five years from now" - current trends on the high street are heteronormative now moreso than ever. (Cue links to cultural anthropology/gender study theses linking freedom of self-expression and economic climate here)
It's definitely something that, as with anything, can look great. Without delving into a discussion of the subjectivity of taste and its origins in learned cultural norms, lest I start another round of back and forth. Aside from a select few posters, I don't think anyone is concerned that it's a set of bloomers so much as that there's an ugly pattern paired with questionable footwear and top.

The thing is that when Gaultier did it you had the same "transgressive gesture" discourse surrounding it and men still don't wear skirts and happily call people wearing them faggots. Now things aren't that simple as men's relationship to clothing and fashion has definitely changed amoung the under 30 crowd but skirts for men at H&M without people going apeship isn't for tomorrow.
post #77263 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

What the fuck are we allowed to dress in, then? this is a pretty narrow view of fashion, and of global culture in general. There's a difference between saying "well, I think that's beautiful but i live in the Bible Belt and I'll get my fucking ass kicked by blue collar types or oil derrick workers on the way home from work and it's just not worth it" - which is at least honest - and saying that you shouldn't wear something because it's "not from your culture." Or whatever the fuck sort of half-assed intellectualism you're trying to put together over there. Maybe your words aren't coming out right, but right now you sound like an idiot. Do you mean that people should understand what they're wearing? Because that would make a bit more sense, to a limited extent, but then we might as well have another discussion of hipsterism and the random appropriation of cultural signifiers, which is perhaps more relevant, but I don't know that we can handle it at this point. If you live in a climate that supports it, I'm not sure why you wouldn't just wear what you like. I'd feel like a cock wearing a kandora around a place where it's culturally significant, but reading through any expat forum will show you that it's done.
It's particularly amusing that this discussion revolves around Parker's wardrobe choices - to all appearances, he lives on a coast in a tolerant, global, fairly cosmopolitan city and embraces what he has described as a "coastal" style. Considering he seems to wear Yohji pretty damn regularly, I don't really understand the complaint. I'm not seeing any problem with that. Even if it were Robbie who had all of a sudden decided to wear a rick skirt, I don't see a problem with changing things up if you feel like it.

Your daily look participate in the fiction of the self you have created for yourself and others, if you switch it up at random it is bound to create some friction. If I wear a suit and tie 364 days a year and my friends suddenly see me in a leather jacket and rock tee they're going to react.
post #77264 of 117670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post

laugh.gif ouch! portlandia is awesome.
I have worn this with a yohji military jacket on top looks better. . i think this is missing a tougher masculine element to offset the softer stuff. just too hot for anything today and working at home.

 

This. I missed all the controversy yesterday, but as a general response to the discussion, when I see westerners wearing hakama with tank tops or anything too skinny, it makes me feel faintly embarrassed (and my wife, who is Japanese, just laughs). Whether it's Yohji or more traditional Japanese male style) hakama tend to be worn with something on top that balances the bottom half, either the traditional haori (kimono-like coat) or a Yohji-type oversized jacket.

 

What I mean here is that there's a certain element of respect for the origins of things that contributes to the coherence and balance of an outfit. It's not just about grad school arguments about gender binaries (and BTW, arguments on the basis only of what is 'correct' for mainstream gender roles are ridiculous, but that's not the only point of analysis here). It's not about calling things 'skirts' either. That in itself is the assignment of a mainstream anglo-america, normative assumption to something that does not originate within that system of meaning. Kilts, hakama, sarongs etc. all have their own existence, history and cultural place and are not 'skirts' just because they look superficially like a skirt. And again, that doesn't mean that men wearing skirts is wrong or looks bad either, but that's a different discussion.

 

This is, by the way, why Neofinita and Ivwri always look pretty damn good - because they have some understanding of this.


Edited by FlyingMonkey - 10/3/12 at 9:20am
post #77265 of 117670
Quote:
In Cornwall, the cream tea was traditionally served with a "Cornish split", a type of slightly sweet white bread roll, rather than a scone.[5] It is now rare to find this available commercially, even in Cornwall, although splits are still used by many Cornish families in their own homes. The warm roll (or scone) is first buttered, then spread with strawberry jam, and finally topped with a spoonful of clotted cream. Scones are rarely buttered in commercially available teas.

 

      Um...

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