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Wolverine 1000 Mile Boot Review - Page 36

post #526 of 6601
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecch View Post
...can't imagine a 5 mm outshell to be very comfortable.
Mike, Can you elaborate on the above captioned comments? Is 5mm too thick or too thin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecch View Post
Well, I'm a leather hobbyist ... ...I wouldn't want to wear boots made out of full-grain 15 oz hide from adult steers anyway.
Just curious why it's undesirable in a boot, too thick or too thin?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecch View Post
But of course when the hide comes out from the tanning pit or drum, it would be full-grain. I was just assuming the leather would have been split after tanning to achieve a thickness that's more suitable for boot-making? Or the CXL used on the boots come from younger animals or thinner cuts on the hide?
Can you elaborate on the splitting process you reference (why, how, etc.?)? Thx for sharing your thoughts.
post #527 of 6601
IMO 5mm would be uncomfortable, too thick. Some folks don't even like their belts to be that thick, let alone shoes The splitting process basically involves cutting the leather through the horizontal plane, slicing away some of the corium, thus making the leather thinner (to be used on bags, shoes, gloves, wallets, etc.) Done via a big machine - there are some videos available on YouTube showcasing the processes at various tanneries around the world - a few of them should include the splitting/calibrating process. Again, not trying to bash the 1k boots - I quite like them actually. It has one of the thicker outshells on any shoe, and this is why Wolverine can make the boots unlined on the interior. And to be fair, the thickest CXL I've seen could not have been more than 3 to 4 mm - perhaps it really is full-grain at that thickness, either due to the processing involved (rolling, etc) or the selection of hides for processing? If anybody with a close association with Horween would like to chime in, it would be much appreciated. The scuffs on the 1k boots, though, does bother me somewhat - I do not see so many scratches on Yuketen, White's, etc boots that are made of CXL.
post #528 of 6601
To clear things up, here's a post from DWFII from an another thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Be very careful about what you read...especially on the 'net.

There are some very respected sources--specifically the LIA (Leather Industries of America and the International Council of Tanners---that consider full grain and top grain as one and the same thing...or near-as-nevermind.

http://www.leatherusa.org/i4a/pages/...fm?pageid=3286

Quote:
Full Grain leather is defined by Leather Industries of America (LIA) and the American leather manufacturing industry that it represents as:

"The grain split of a hide from which nothing has been removed except the hair and associated epidermis."
...

The above definition is consistent with the official definition promulgated by the International Council of Tanners (ICT), the International Union of Leather Technologists and Chemists Societies (IULTCS), and the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) which is as follows:
"Leather bearing the original grain surface as exposed by removal of the epidermis and with none of the surface removed by buffing, snuffing or splitting."


Top Grain leather is the same as full grain leather.
post #529 of 6601
^ That would explain it perfectly... Although potentially confusing and misleading to consumers, it actually makes sense as splitting the leather doesn't affect the grain - and thus, the grain is still 'full'? So, Wolverine boots are made of top/full grain CXL that have most likely been split, haha
post #530 of 6601
Thanks for the clarification guys.
post #531 of 6601
Yeah OK then explain this away. In general, leather is sold in four forms:
  • Full-grain leather refers to the leather which has not had the upper "top grain" and "split" layers separated. The upper section of a hide that previously contained the epidermis and hair, but were removed from the hide/skin. Full-grain refers to hides that have not been sanded, buffed, or snuffed (as opposed to top-grain or corrected leather) to remove imperfections (or natural marks) on the surface of the hide. The grain remains allowing the fiber strength and durability. The grain also has breathability, resulting in less moisture from prolonged contact. Rather than wearing out, it will develop a patina over time. High quality leather furniture and footwear are often made from full-grain leather. Full-grain leathers are typically available in two finish types: aniline and semi-aniline.
  • Top-grain leather is the second-highest quality and has had the "split" layer separated away, making it thinner and more pliable than full grain. Its surface has been sanded and a finish coat added to the surface which results in a colder, plastic feel with less breathability, and will not develop a natural patina. It is typically less expensive, and has greater resistance to stains than full-grain leather, so long as the finish remains unbroken.
  • Corrected-grain leather is any leather that has had an artificial grain applied to its surface. The hides used to create corrected leather do not meet the standards for use in creating vegetable-tanned or aniline leather. The imperfections are corrected or sanded off and an artificial grain impressed into the surface and dressed with stain or dyes. Most corrected-grain leather is used to make pigmented leather as the solid pigment helps hide the corrections or imperfections. Corrected grain leathers can mainly be bought as two finish types: semi-aniline and pigmented.
  • Split leather is leather created from the fibrous part of the hide left once the top-grain of the rawhide has been separated from the hide. During the splitting operation, the top grain and drop split are separated. The drop split can be further split (thickness allowing) into a middle split and a flesh split. In very thick hides, the middle split can be separated into multiple layers until the thickness prevents further splitting. Split leather then has an artificial layer applied to the surface of the split and is embossed with a leather grain (bycast leather). Splits are also used to create suede. The strongest suedes are usually made from grain splits (that have the grain completely removed) or from the flesh split that has been shaved to the correct thickness. Suede is "fuzzy" on both sides. Manufacturers use a variety of techniques to make suede from full-grain. A reversed suede is a grained leather that has been designed into the leather article with the grain facing away from the visible surface. It is not considered to be a true form of suede.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather#Leather_types Whoever says full grain and top grain leather are the same thing is full of shit and they know it.
post #532 of 6601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post
Full-grain leather refers to the leather which has not had the upper "top grain" and "split" layers separated. The upper section of a hide that previously contained the epidermis and hair, but were removed from the hide/skin. Full-grain refers to hides that have not been sanded, buffed, or snuffed (as opposed to top-grain or corrected leather) to remove imperfections (or natural marks) on the surface of the hide. The grain remains allowing the fiber strength and durability. The grain also has breathability, resulting in less moisture from prolonged contact. Rather than wearing out, it will develop a patina over time. High quality leather furniture and footwear are often made from full-grain leather. Full-grain leathers are typically available in two finish types: aniline and semi-aniline.

But this is from Wiki???
Obviously whoever wrote this isn't a professional or is even remotely interested in the various tannages of leather - written from a chrome-tanned furniture/boot leather point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post
Top-grain leather is the second-highest quality and has had the "split" layer separated away, making it thinner and more pliable than full grain. Its surface has been sanded and a finish coat added to the surface which results in a colder, plastic feel with less breathability, and will not develop a natural patina. It is typically less expensive, and has greater resistance to stains than full-grain leather, so long as the finish remains unbroken.

I have to disagree that top grain is second highest quality - name me some items in your store that is made from unsplit, full grain adult steer at 15 oz.
The point I'm trying to make is that almost all modern leather goods and accessories need to be made from leather that has been split, unless the animal from which the hide originates is small/young.

Secondly, I must disagree that top-grain has the surface sanded or coated - why does it have to be?
The splitting process is simply carving away some of the corium, and has nothing to do with the grain.
It only has less strength because some of the corium fibres have been cut away - it's like comparing the leather strength on my 16 oz belt and my 4 oz wallet, hardly fair?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post
Whoever says full grain and top grain leather are the same thing is full of shit and they know it.

I don't really like the definition either.
But these leather scientists are basically the brains behind the tanneries and leather industry, so I guess whatever they agree becomes standard.
post #533 of 6601
15 ounce leather. OK 15/64ths of an inch. We don't sell saddles so nothing in that thickness. The closest thing we have would be Filson bridle leather belts and they would be around 12 ounce leather. I will agree with you about the need for splitting leather to get a workable thickness for small leather goods. The problem is in the definition of top grain and how it's been perceived in the market place. True bridle leather is unsplit full grain vegetable tanned leather. Several of the big name UK leather wallet companies sell what they call bridle leather wallets but the reality is it's the top grain section of a split hide. I know you can see where I'm going with this. They avoid terms like full grain or top grain at all costs and just say bridle leather. BTW they are gorgeous wallets, I own one from one of the UK makers. Filson does the same thing with their wallets. I've handled hides so I know the thickness can vary from section to section. Boot companies use the section that works for them or they order hides that range from say 4 to 6 ounce. When they say full grain they mean full grain. It is not split. Yeah it's a wiki link but every single saddle maker I know will tell you basically the same thing. Hell even Tandy says pretty much the same thing on their site. If you want to really talk about something that pisses me off it would be corrected grain/embossed leather being sold as some premium product by the big gun luxury houses. They did a great job at marketing shit and getting people to eat it. I'll blame that one on Deluxe: How Luxury Lost It's Luster. LOL.
post #534 of 6601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post
15 ounce leather. OK 15/64ths of an inch. We don't sell saddles so nothing in that thickness. The closest thing we have would be Filson bridle leather belts and they would be around 12 ounce leather. I will agree with you about the need for splitting leather to get a workable thickness for small leather goods. The problem is in the definition of top grain and how it's been perceived in the market place. True bridle leather is unsplit full grain vegetable tanned leather. Several of the big name UK leather wallet companies sell what they call bridle leather wallets but the reality is it's the top grain section of a split hide. I know you can see where I'm going with this. They avoid terms like full grain or top grain at all costs and just say bridle leather. BTW they are gorgeous wallets, I own one from one of the UK makers. Filson does the same thing with their wallets. I've handled hides so I know the thickness can vary from section to section. Boot companies use the section that works for them or they order hides that range from say 4 to 6 ounce. When they say full grain they mean full grain. It is not split. Yeah it's a wiki link but every single saddle maker I know will tell you basically the same thing. Hell even Tandy says pretty much the same thing on their site. If you want to really talk about something that pisses me off it would be corrected grain/embossed leather being sold as some premium product by the big gun luxury houses. They did a great job at marketing shit and getting people to eat it. I'll blame that one on Deluxe: How Luxury Lost It's Luster. LOL.
+ 1 on corrected leathers on luxury goods. Patent pisses me off, as does corrected grains that feel like plastic (even on the most prestigious of UK shoes.) I'm not disagreeing on the distinction between top and full grain - in fact, your definition is the one I've been working with ever since I got interested in leather. But if leather scientists say otherwise, I don't think we or even leather workers can argue to the contrary - this would be the definition by which tanneries and curriers operate. It would be like disagreeing with a doctor about the differences between cellulitis and impetigo. For 4 to 6 oz boot leather, unless they're using a side cut on younger animals, I don't see how they can avoid splitting the leather? A fully grown steer or bull still has quite a hefty hide even on the side portions. But then again, I guess most boot leather are cut from younger hides. I do know that many of the traditional tanners of bridle leather such as Baker's of Devon, etc, do sell it in different weights - and to them, a top-grain is still bridle - as the growth of the grain is essentially the same. The thickest bridle leather I have is 15oz, and the craftsmen had no idea what to do with it for 3 years until I approached him to get some belts done. What gives the leather its strength, adjusted for thickness and tannage, is the direction & grouping of fibrils as well as the relative proportion of the grain to junction to corium and how the three structures are organised (fat content, etc)...these are all relatively unchanged when the leather is split, other than the obvious thinning of the corium and thus the grain to corium ratio (which is actually improved.) I really don't think a 8 oz split from a 15 oz back-cut is any weaker than an unsplit 8 oz side-cut from the same animal. The hides are mostly split at the tannery too, so by the time shoe-makers or saddlers get the hide, it may or may not have been split already - and the tanneries will still advertise them as full-grain anyway, according to the definitions set out by their scientists.
post #535 of 6601
I guess the main thing to worry about is if the leather is full aniline and is the epidermal layer au naturale. Getting it to a suitable thickness for it's intended purpose really doesn't matter to me and shouldn't to anyone else. I think the guilds are trying to deal with a perceived quality issue more than anything else. Perhaps they should just redefine their definitions clearly and concisely instead of being ambiguous. People also need to understand what leather type actually patinas. Hint, it's the stuff me and mikechh are talking about. If the corners of your wallet or case are worn and you are seeing bluish leather you can forget about developing a real patina.....
post #536 of 6601
Wow I guess I got lucky after reading some of the issues that everyone had with the factory second boots from sportsmans guide. Mine have continued to give great service and are holding up wonderfully. Although I got them to wear everyday and they have seen their share of abuse and scuffing that comes with normal wear they still look great , not new as I treat them regularly with a variety of waterproofing and leather treatment products which have darkened them somewhat (mostly the contrasting stiching) but they continue to soke up the abuse and shake it off and keep on going. The one complaint I do have with them is the laceing hooks at the top of the boot seem to be of a somewhat softer metal than I am used to and are prone to bending and have to be bent back into line. I worry somewhat that if this continues one will end up breaking. But if that happens I will probably replace them with eyelets anyway.
post #537 of 6601
After one day of hiking a rocky muddy trail your boots will look something like the pics below. You won't care or worry about the minor flaws that are seen. Enjoy them, beat them, maintain them and they'll look great years down the road. Oh No My Addisons are Ruined! LOL! by DYSong Photography, on Flickr Awwww Muddy Boot by DYSong Photography, on Flickr
post #538 of 6601
" ... Enjoy them, beat them, maintain them and they'll look great years down the road. " I couldn't agree more. These are hardly dress boots anyway. they are made to be used.
post #539 of 6601
I've got a pair of loved 1000 mile boots in rust, 8d. Check sig if interested.

Modern design aesthetic. Handmade in Los Angeles. www.JohnElliott.co | Instagram

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Modern design aesthetic. Handmade in Los Angeles. www.JohnElliott.co | Instagram

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post #540 of 6601
Tried a 9 and 8 on. 9 was good but felt a little loose 8 was tight around the width. This was with dreas socks on. Should I opt for 8.5
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