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My issues with soccer - Page 11

post #151 of 159
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by trogdor
But that is what happens in soccer. The complication is that the referee is the one with the stop-watch, and we don't get to see it. He stops it when the ball goes out, and when players are "injured" and so on, but his watch is not connected up to a central, visible, display. That's why, when it's near the end of the game according to the clock on the TV screen, someone says to the ref. "We've got 90 minutes, what about you?" and he says "I've only got 88" and then there's two minutes of stoppage time. It's not like stoppage time is extra.




Again, it's up to the referee to stop that from happening. He has a stopwatch in his hand, and if people are celebrating in injury time (or if they get injured in injury time, or if the ball goes out in injury time) he can pause his stop watch. The reason that they call it "injury time" at all, is just as a courtesy to you, the viewer, so that you know that there's a discrepancy between the clock visible on the TV screen (which has been running continuously) and the watch on the referee's arm, which he has been stopping and starting according to what's happening on the field, just like in any other sport.

It's only in the last five or so years that they've even started telling us how much injury time there is at all, but I think that's precisely what's caused confusion amongst people who think that injury time is extra time (which it's not).

The essence of the US sports fan's view of your explanation could be boiled down with a paraphrase from Spinal Tap: "Why does yours go to 11?"
post #152 of 159
I kind of like stoppage time. Again I think it also kind of reflects the political values of the societies. In America, where the government has to hold everybody's hand in everything they do, people need to know at exactly what time they are supposed to start something and at exactly what time, to the millisecond they are supposed to stop. If they are not told exactly what to do and when exactly to do it they get confused an upset. I think the societies that prefer soccer are societies where people are more self-reliant (even though Europe is socialist in many economic aspects, in many personal aspects it's a lot more free than America, where government regulates almost every aspect of our lives) and prefer to just go with the flow. They don't need to know exactly when to stop, just like they don't need to know exactly where to put the ball when there's a fouled or exactly where to throw the ball back in from when it goes out of bounds.

Man I wish I could find that article that talked about all this stuff. America was once like soccer and the ideals of our Founding Fathers would have America be more like soccer (fluid, less involvment by government, people are self-relient and mostly control their own conduct within a set of very broad rules) than American football (violent, belligerant, with the government controlling your every move and acting within a set of very stringent and precise rules and regulations that can never be strayed from).
post #153 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by odoreater
I kind of like stoppage time. Again I think it also kind of reflects the political values of the societies. In America, where the government has to hold everybody's hand in everything they do, people need to know at exactly what time they are supposed to start something and at exactly what time, to the millisecond they are supposed to stop. If they are not told exactly what to do and when exactly to do it they get confused an upset. I think the societies that prefer soccer are societies where people are more self-reliant (even though Europe is socialist in many economic aspects, in many personal aspects it's a lot more free than America, where government regulates almost every aspect of our lives) and prefer to just go with the flow. They don't need to know exactly when to stop, just like they don't need to know exactly where to put the ball when there's a fouled or exactly where to throw the ball back in from when it goes out of bounds.
If we're going to look at the game as a microcosm of cultural values, I would interpret this very differently. The American value at work is the desire, often expressed but unfortunately less often fulfilled, that everything be as fair and transparent as possible. Maybe the ref's getting paid to throw the game; maybe there's some shadiness or foul play. Or maybe you just want to make sure everyone realizes the exact stakes involved. In any event, put it up on a screen where everyone can see it. Then everyone knows what's going on, there's no question of someone tweaking it, and if anyone complains, you've got a giant clock to point to and say "now shut up and play." The other explanation, I think, is that American sports are so totally geared toward Big Moments. We LOVE it when the clock is winding down, there's 2.4 seconds exactly to inbound the ball, get it to your best shooter, hope he can make a move to get free, then throw up a buzzer-beater right as the backboard lights up. We love it when a football team has to go into a no-huddle offense and tear down the field because they're out of timeouts and can't stop the clock, trying desperately to beat it. American sports fans LIVE for those moments. Kobe's two buzzer-beaters against the Suns in the playoffs this last year almost made me respect him as a human being again. Almost. And it would NOT have been the same thing if Dick Bavetta was just holding a stopwatch on the sidelines and just blew a whistle when his stopwatch indicated that the game was over.
post #154 of 159
^^^ Fucking Reggie Miller.
post #155 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucemaster
The other explanation, I think, is that American sports are so totally geared toward Big Moments. We LOVE it when the clock is winding down, there's 2.4 seconds exactly to inbound the ball, get it to your best shooter, hope he can make a move to get free, then throw up a buzzer-beater right as the backboard lights up. We love it when a football team has to go into a no-huddle offense and tear down the field because they're out of timeouts and can't stop the clock, trying desperately to beat it. American sports fans LIVE for those moments. Kobe's two buzzer-beaters against the Suns in the playoffs this last year almost made me respect him as a human being again. Almost. And it would NOT have been the same thing if Dick Bavetta was just holding a stopwatch on the sidelines and just blew a whistle when his stopwatch indicated that the game was over.

Woah there, you just pulled the old switcheroo on me. I wasn't talking about basketball, I was talking about football. I have absolutely no beef with basketball. I probably play more basketball than soccer these days and I like watching basketball in person more than I like watching in soccer. I think basketball has a lot more of the qualities of soccer than it does of football. I'd also say that the rest of the world also likes basketball a lot more than any other American sport (as evidenced by our failure to dominate the Olympics last time around). If you were going to categorize sports I would put soccer and basketball in the same category as one another and put football and baseball together in a different catagory.
post #156 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by odoreater
Woah there, you just pulled the old switcheroo on me. I wasn't talking about basketball, I was talking about football. I have absolutely no beef with basketball. I probably play more basketball than soccer these days and I like watching basketball in person more than I like watching in soccer. I think basketball has a lot more of the qualities of soccer than it does of football. I'd also say that the rest of the world also likes basketball a lot more than any other American sport (as evidenced by our failure to dominate the Olympics last time around). If you were going to categorize sports I would put soccer and basketball in the same category as one another and put football and baseball together in a different catagory.
I was using basketball as an example, because it's my favorite spectator sport, but I was talking about American sports in general--I was running with your "sport reflecting cultural values" theme. I think my points are still applicable to football, too--especially the one about Big Moments (tm). Football is completely structured around big moments, actually. Each down is more important than the last. How exciting is it when a team has to go for it on 4th and long, for example? Or watching the runningback try to squeeze that last yard out on third down when a guy's already hanging off him? And as the game progresses, each moment becomes more and more important. Like I said, I think American sports are geared to build towards things like a no-huddle offense situation (which my Eagles, for example, botched horribly a couple Superbowls ago), or one of those heartstopping 45-yard field goals with 3 seconds left on the clock that Vinatieri has iced so many teams with. Basketball's just the easiest example. At any rate, we both agree about basketball. In fact, I think one of the reasons I always end up disappointed with soccer/football is that I keep wanting it to be basketball (which obviously isn't fair, but there's no accounting for taste). What do you think about my first point? The fairness/transparency point? That's how I've always seen the apparently American obsession with a giant ticking clock and precise accounting for each tenth of a second. I'd be interested to know whether you think I'm off base or not.
post #157 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Checks
The essence of the US sports fan's view of your explanation could be boiled down with a paraphrase from Spinal Tap: "Why does yours go to 11?"
One of my all-time favoirte movie quotes . . .
post #158 of 159
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saucemaster
What do you think about my first point? The fairness/transparency point? That's how I've always seen the apparently American obsession with a giant ticking clock and precise accounting for each tenth of a second. I'd be interested to know whether you think I'm off base or not.

I don't think you're completely off base. I would say: transparency - yes; fairness - not always.

I think stoppage time gives the referee some discretion which allows him to account for some unfairness that might occur in the game; but, as you said, it also allows him to abuse that discretion and influence the result.

I wish we demanded the same kind of transparency from our government where they would have to account for every penny of our money that they spend.
post #159 of 159
I am not interested in soccer because I just do not have the patience for it. Soccer has no instant gratification like football, baseball, tennis, or basketball. I played soccer in the 5th grade. We ran up and down the field for an hour and the at the end score was 0-0. I knew then soccer was not for me.
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