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Best Animated Film - Page 7

post #91 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
TS - why are you so angry?

Somehow, I believe that you think that you "won" this argument and that it makes you look cool but you got owned left and right and your disproportionate anger is making you look like a sore loser too... I know it's hard to see from your perspective

lol

Are you really backing Lefty on this? That's hilarious. I'm not angry, Lefty is frustrating because he's insisting on acting as if me liking the Disney movie Robin Hood is a personal insult to him. But I'm not angry. I'm toying wit him.

How exactly has he "owned" me? By telling me how many people he knows? That he's an award winning animator?

A: I told him I was God, and created the universe, and there is just as much proof that I am who I say I am as he is who he says he is.

B: So what? As I pointed out, even if he were Walt Disney himself, and he told me that I couldn't like his movies, it's too late. I already like them. I'm not going to STOP liking them just because some dude who claims to be an expert repeatedly and strongly hints that he finds my taste questionable and beneath him, and then proceeds to "prove" his taste is superior by listing a bunch of really fancy sounding accomplishments. If you think I've been owned, it's only because you aren't paying attention.


Nothing he has said has changed my mind, nor will it. Because nothing he said is about his original point. It's all a smokescreen.

Here are the facts that Lefty has presented us:
  • Lefty is not as familiar with the movie as he thinks he is, by his own admission, he hasn't seen it since the 70's.
  • Lefty is biased against the movie due to his previous experience in animation.
  • Lefty likes Elton John and he's not paying very close attention to what he's typing - since he didn't mean to type Pocahontas in his list of "Dsney Movies that are good" category. What an embarrassing mistake!
  • Lefty knows many people in the American animation industy.
  • Lefty has won awards and made a few films.
  • Lefty is anti photo rotoscoping
  • Lefty thinks Robin Hood sucks, no, wait, he thinks it's ok, no wait, it sucks, no wait, if he were to ever actually watch it, he might be entertained, no wait, what's his story again?
Facts that I have presented:
  • I like Robin Hood and think it's a pretty entertaining movie.
  • There are a lot of people who agree with me.
So far, I'm pretty sure my position in this argument is more stable than his. I don't HAVE to prove that I like Robin Hood. It requires no proof and no evidence. And there ARE a lot of people who agree with me.

Now, I believe what Lefty was originally trying to say, but lacked the balls to do so is - He thinks we should HATE Robin Hood. Because his taste is impeccable and superior. and ours sucks. This is pretty much the only reason I can think of for getting into an argument about whether or not people think it's a good movie. I'm not interested in who doesn't like it. Why would I care? I'm not trying to convert anyone, so why is Lefty trying so hard?
post #92 of 123
Fire & Ice
post #93 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
Dude . . . I'm not trying to educate you.

Then why did you want me to thank you for dropping all this knowledge on me? You act like I should be grateful you are trying to convince me that Robin Hood sucks.

I don't recall paying you for any lessons.
post #94 of 123
i don't know what i missed but robin hood was pretty fucking good IIRC
post #95 of 123
rikki tiki tavi
post #96 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekunk07 View Post
i don't know what i missed but robin hood was pretty fucking good IIRC
You may want to reconsider. Lefty has shaken hands with a lot of animators in his time, and made some animated movies, and he thinks that you should think that it sucks. And GDL agrees. I'm just trying to save everyone a lot of time by condensing the past like 6 pages or whatever. So... yeah. Robin Hood sucks now because Lefty says so. New rule.
post #97 of 123
Oh, and evidently I'm "mad" again. And I got "owned". You missed that too.
post #98 of 123
Hey guys, this is easy.

Lefty's side of the argument:

  • 'Robin Hood is unfortunately one film that will forever be known as a less than shining moment of the Disney studio. And I have an opinion about it.'
  • Many people, including the animators, agree with him.

Tokyo Slim's side of the argument:

  • 'I like Robin Hood and think it's a pretty entertaining movie.'
  • 'There are a lot of people who agree with me.'

Let me distil it further.

Lefty: Disney's employees who worked on the film weren't proud of it, and people in the industry then/now, know, and empathise them.

Tokyo Slim: Robin Hood is entertaining, despite what Lefty said of its troubled production.

So, there's actually no conflict here. Neither of you can disprove the other's statement. (q.e.d.)
post #99 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoorado View Post
Neither of you can disprove the other's statement. (q.e.d.)
How much you want to bet he keeps trying though? It seems that he thinks I owe him money for all the teaching he's been doing, but he hasn't said anything that I didn't already know that had any bearing on the conversation. The rest of his personal anecdotes, I assume were free. But so far I am unsatisfied with my lesson. I won't be paying for it anytime soon.
post #100 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
a whole bunch of shit that lefty doesn't care to read
Slim, you are one fucked up little cowpoke. It's Saturday night, my wife's out of town and I'm watching The Sea Hawk on TV. What's your excuse for hanging out at home arguing on the interwebs? Shouldn't you be out there trying to bang film majors?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekunk07 View Post
i don't know what i missed but robin hood was pretty fucking good IIRC
You're dead to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoorado View Post
Hey guys, this is easy . . .
I see you're new to SF. lefty
post #101 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
How much you want to bet he keeps trying though?

Whatever you wagered, you just lost.
post #102 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
Slim, you are one fucked up little cowpoke. It's Saturday night, my wife's out of town and I'm watching The Sea Hawk on TV. What's your excuse for hanging out at home arguing on the interwebs? Shouldn't you be out there trying to bang film majors?
http://www.styleforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=157 Same reason I was at home last night, and the same reason I've been at home since shortly after new years, and will continue to be at home until the first weekend of March. I like arguing, especially when I know I can't lose, and Film majors? Not my style at all. Anyone who hasn't realized that film school is largely a waste of money isn't really smart enough for me to be really attracted to them. The ones who DO realize that they are wasting their money and don't care... that's a different story but it's hard to tell them apart. Too much effort. I don't like being fooled or wasting my time. Oh, and while we've been chatting today I've finished up watching my Hulk marathon I started yesterday with Hulk Planet and The Death of the Incredible Hulk. I also watched Sherlock Holmes, and am now starting on a series of Rutger Hauer films not-including-Blade Runner which I watched Wed. First, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. then Soldier of Orange. Confessions of a Dangerous Mind... maybe Omega Doom after that. Just because you shared what you are watching.
post #103 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
I like arguing, especially when I know I can't lose, and Film majors? Not my style at all.... Too much effort. I don't like being fooled or wasting my time.


Oh, and while we've been chatting today I've finished up watching my Hulk marathon...



Do you work in film though? Are you trying to? You seem to be a pretty condescending fellow when it comes to children's entertainment: what's your stake in it? Lefty seems to be posting from an experienced expert's point of view, but in spite of your knowledge of the topic, you come off as twitchy and kind of neurotic. If you're just one of those men who watches a lot of cartoons (and brags about fucking lesbians to strangers on the internet...) though - well, QED I suppose.
post #104 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynchpatrickj View Post
Do you work in film though?
No
Quote:
Are you trying to?
probably at some point, not in animation though. Or at least, not as an animator. Incredibly boring work.
Quote:
You seem to be a pretty condescending fellow when it comes to children's entertainment: what's your stake in it?
I was answering Lefty's condescending attitude with one of my own. I didn't become condescending until well after he did. As a matter of fact, I gave him several chances to drop it at the beginning, but he made it pretty clear he wanted to have an argument about it with me. I enjoy arguing. It makes the time go by faster.
Quote:
Lefty seems to be posting from an experienced expert's point of view, but in spite of your knowledge of the topic, you come off as twitchy and kind of neurotic. If you're just one of those men who watches a lot of cartoons (and brags about fucking lesbians to strangers on the internet...) though - well, QED I suppose.
I think you misunderstood the point of the lesbian story. It had just as little to do with what was being discussed as Lefty's "I've shaken hands with so and so, had dinner with X, Been interviewed by somebody, and made ___ number of movies." You can be easily misled into thinking that it has something to do with the topic, since the discussion is generally ABOUT animated films, but it does not. The topic is, who gets to decide what is a good movie. Lefty is convinced that it's him, or people in the industry, and I am convinced that it's the people who watch it and decide whether or not they like it. Not someone who knows a backstory, or has met the illustrator. The people who actually WATCH the movie. That is my point. The people that Lefty knows and the experiences that he's had in his life give him no more authority to arbiter the entertainment quality of a movie than a six year old who's watching it for the first time. Or a guy who sleeps with a lesbian. The point was, that Lefty's argument is full out sound and fury, but signifies nothing.
post #105 of 123
I'd be the first to admit that I'm as full of shit as anyone. I'm not trying to condescend to you. If anything my writing is dry and as I don't use smilies it comes across as harsh.

The Bakshi style comment caught my attention. Bakshi used rotoscoping to save money on the battles scenes and production. A fully animated feature can take years to complete and require a lot of talented animators, but you can shoot a costume epic in a few months and have nonprofessionals do the grunt work in a much shorter period of time. You still need key talent, just fewer than a traditional film. The Xerox machine was kept busy.

Here's an interesting little documentary of Fire and Ice that shows the entire process including the studio shoot.



During production and release some heralded it as a new way of animating or a more realistic illustrative approach, but it was bloody awful. Even Bakshi later regretted using rotoscoping and as you can see in this interview felt that it was the only way he could produce LotR. He never mentions it as a stylistic choice. He also comes across as an angry old dude which makes me like him very much.

------------------

Emru Townsend: One of the things you hear from people who work in animation is that you love rotoscope.

Ralph Bakshi: I don't love rotoscope.

It almost seems like you do.

I don't love rotoscope. It may seem like I love rotoscope, but I don't love rotoscope. In fact I hate rotoscope.

For someone who hates it, you used it an awful lot.

That's right.

How do you think I learned to hate it? [laughs] How do you get to hate something? You live with some women, they fuck you over, you learn to hate them too. It's only in contact with things that you get know it and hate it. You shouldn't hate anything you don't know. [laughs] Have I taught you something, son? [laughs]


I'll have to take that to heart. [laughs]

What the fuck is that all about? Absolutely. Who would know better than me? [laughs] You're funny.

You got a lot of criticism for that"”

They can take their criticism and shove it up their ass. Ask me the next question. What do I care about people's criticism?

Well, I know you don't care about it. But the thing about it is"”

The thing about it is what?

I've always found the criticism kind of shallow. Because what I'm wondering is"”

All CGI is rotoscope. What do you think CGI is today? All those special effects and everything you do"”I was using primitive CGI. Stop calling it rotoscope. All animators are now being thrown out of work because all of CGI and all of animation's going rotoscope. The only difference between what I did"”this is serious now"”and what they're doing is they've got this other step the computer does that's called rendering. So you take their rotoscoped fucking action, and you render it like I've never seen anything possibly"”hair is glistening, teeth are shining"”they cover up all the rotoscope with all this fantastic rendering, but it's all rotoscope! They call it CGI, I call it rotoscope with machine rendering.

Sure I got criticism from animators for using rotoscope. But if anyone could tell me how I was going to animate the flight to the Ford [in Lord of the Rings], which is nine ring wraiths chasing Frodo on horseback, without rotoscope, let me know how and I'll do it tomorrow. There was no answer to that in my day. There wasn't CGI. How else should it have been done? There was no other way. Would I have liked there to be another way? Sure. Do I like rotoscope? No. Was it impossible to do Rings without rotoscope? You could not do Rings without rotoscope.

What I'm saying is, sometimes [certain] techniques are needed. Now the fact that it was primitive compared to where it went"”I was in the primitive days of what CGI is doing. Look at the orcs. That came as close to rendering as you can get without a computer, with rotoscope, leaving the photographic image underneath the animation. It's the same attempt that they're doing in CGI. Now every special effect picture like Matrix and everything is all rotoscope, and people don't complain about it. Well, that's the end result of what Bakshi started, you can tell them that. [laughs] You can tell them they can kiss my ass.

Actually, there are a couple of animators who call computer motion capture "Satan's rotoscope." They aren't particularly happy with the computer stuff either.

No, rotoscope is shit! I couldn't stand rotoscope, but how else would you do the Rings? Those people that complain, you should [say to them], all right, motherfuckers. You're an animator, sit down and do the flight to the Ford, with nine wraiths chasing Frodo. Go ahead. I dare you. And finish it in less than ten years. Not to talk about the 200 orcs coming over the hill.

So who are they kidding? But that's okay. Those are the same people that complained that I wasn't doing the kids' films, that I was ruining the business. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Those wimps. [laughs] You can quote me.

-----------------------

Warning: academic animation nerd shit alert - Heavy Traffic(which I love) was in production right around the same time as Mean Streetsand eerily both Bakshi and Scorcese used many of the same location to shoot.

Heavy Traffic trailer:


lefty
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