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Best Animated Film - Page 8

post #106 of 123
Now I'm thinking about cool animated shorts. If the OP feels this is too off topic I'll move it. I really like drawn on film and stop motion work. There is something magical than happens with straight ahead animation. One of the first and still greatest is Norman McLaren of the national Film Board of Canada (and yes, I have met McLaren). McLaren was one of the first to experiment with abstract animation (Oskar Fischenger another) at a time when the focus was on cartooning. Here is a Norman McLaren and Oscar Peterson trip called Begone Dull Care: He also did a lot of stop-motion. Here he is giving the opening remarks at the Montreal Film Festival: Tim Burton's Vincent: While in a dark mood, Ted Parmelee's, The Telltale Heart: This is just bloody wonderful. Blu's Muto: lefty
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post #107 of 123
Quote:
FWIW, Ralph Bakshi's rotoscoped movies are a STYLE. Just because something doesn't look like a Disney movie doesn't mean it's bad either.
Re read that, and then tell me that required you to post the encyclopedia up there.
  • I didn't say Bakshi used it to be different
  • I didn't say Bakshi invented it
  • I didn't say he didn't have budgetary reasons for using it
You are still arguing some bullshit point that Disney movies are inherently better than other animated movies. Disney has made some excellent animated films, but just because they are Disney doesn't automatically mean anything. Other than likely "the most money was spent." There are many, MANY other rotoscoped pieces of animation out there, both before and after Bakshi's heydey. Including Dieney films. Cinderella, for example, was fully filmed with actors and then rotoscoped frame by frame just like a Bakshi movie. Bakshi's lord of the rings, did not just trace over the lines of xeroxed live action frames either. Detail was added, dimensions were embellished, etc. Rotoscoping is as much a stylistic choice as it is a practical one. Much of the time it's been done, it's been done for the look.
post #108 of 123
I'm not sure why i keep indulging your ego trips.

It's pretty clear to me that you will not address WHY any of the things you mention make any of these movies "bad".
You can't because there is no reason other than the fact that you are biased against these movies.

3D didn't make Avatar bad, the shitty plot and acting did. Rotoscoping doesn't make American Pop (my fav Bakshi film) good, the story and voice acting does. Back to the original point, you said that the story and voice acting in Robin Hood are bad. I disagree. Many people disagree. I think the voice acting is pretty good, and it fits. The story, while a little loose, is a good adaptation of the Robin Hood stories I used to read when I was a kid.

Judging a movie you saw 30 something years ago, based on some limited and arbitrary criteria of animation quality, and bending everything else to fit your subjective analysis is just kinda weird. I'm sure you are extremely bitter that hand drawn animation is a dying art form, but don't take it out on us.
post #109 of 123
Son, are you a special kind of stupid?

If someone chooses to work in particular style they do so, more or less, for aesthetic reasons and as such there is nothing wrong with rotoscoping. A Scanner Darkly is a good example of a film that used the technique effectively for aesthetic reasons.

Bakshi, however, did so for production reasons due to a low budget and the need to produce an epic:
"Sure I got criticism from animators for using rotoscope. But if anyone could tell me how I was going to animate the flight to the Ford [in Lord of the Rings], which is nine ring wraiths chasing Frodo on horseback, without rotoscope, let me know how and I'll do it tomorrow. There was no answer to that in my day. There wasn't CGI. How else should it have been done? There was no other way. Would I have liked there to be another way? Sure. Do I like rotoscope? No. Was it impossible to do Rings without rotoscope? You could not do Rings without rotoscope."

No where am I arguing about the superiority to Disney movies or classical animation to other techniques. If you look at my first list off the top of my head:

Fantastic Planet
Fritz the Cat
Snow White
Yellow Submarine
Spirited Away
Heavy Traffic
Gulliver's Travels
The Jungle Book
The Iron Giant
Pinocchio

There are only three Disney movies. You'll also note that there are two Bakshi films. My last post was filled with experimental work as unDisney as possible. However, if I only look at Disney, then Robin Hood is way down on the list and has a certain reputation. Ignore me but don't ignore what the co-writer said. I'll repeat it for you just in case you missed it the first two times:

"Ken Anderson wept when he saw how his character concepts had been processed into stereotypes for the animation on Robin Hood."

You're really getting hung up on this rotoscoping thing and I don't think you understand what you're talking about with regards to roto work in Disney movies.

Bakshi's LotR is a failure because of poor storytelling, crapola animation and insane direction, not the rotoscoping. Their failure was what they did with the rotoscoped footage.

This clip is pretty telling:



Given enough time a good animator could have turned that footage into something magical.

Now Bakshi will say that Jackson can kiss his ass as he copied much of his movies from Bakshi's version, which makes me like Bakshi a lot. I love the fact that he made it and have seen it a few times but that doesn't change the fact that it is awful.

lefty
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post #110 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
Son, are you a special kind of stupid?

Are you senile?

Quote:
If someone chooses to work in particular style they do so, more or less, for aesthetic reasons and as such there is nothing wrong with rotoscoping. A Scanner Darkly is a good example of a film that used the technique effectively for aesthetic reasons.

This is the point I was making, not you. You are the one who claims that movies that are rotoscoped are not a style, that they are done simply because they are on a time or monetary budget and are second class films. Get your story straight. Half of what you post in this thread is nonsensical sidetracking bullshit. My point remains the same, and you keep dodging it. Why?

Quote:
Bakshi, however, did so for production reasons due to a low budget and the need to produce an epic:

So... WHAT?!??!?!??!?!?!??!?!?

Pi was shot in black and white for budgetary reasons too, that doesn't mean that black and white is not a style of movie.

Quote:
No where am I arguing about the superiority to Disney movies or classical animation to other techniques.


You have done so throughout this thread.

Quote:
Ignore me but don't ignore what the co-writer said. I'll repeat it for you just in case you missed it the first two times:

"Ken Anderson wept when he saw how his character concepts had been processed into stereotypes for the animation on Robin Hood."

Guess what, this has nothing to do with how enjoyable the movie is. The original writer of the blade runner script wept when they made changes to his script too. For better or worse, it turned out to be a pretty good movie. You keep saying shit like this that is supposed to be meaningful or intelligent, but without remembering what the question is. You expect a response? The response I could have easily given for any of the shit you've posted so far is "So What?" It has no bearing on this conversation, and seems totally designed to prove how smart or knowledgeable you are instead of addressing the topic at hand.

I don't care how much experience you have if you can't explain a simple statement you made back on page 3.




Quote:
You're really getting hung up on this rotoscoping thing and I don't think you understand what you're talking about with regards to roto work in Disney movies.

YOU are getting hung up on the rotoscoping thing. YOU keep bringing it up. And you tell me what I'm missing with regards to roto work in Disney movies. Cinderella was shot completely in live action. Then they traced over every character action with animation. It was the first movie to do so.
Quote:
Bakshi's LotR is a failure because of poor storytelling, crapola animation and insane direction, not the rotoscoping.

That is not what you said. You said it was crap because it was rotoscoped. Get your story straight.

Quote:
Given enough time a good animator could have turned that footage into something magical.

Like Cinderella?
post #111 of 123
Bakshi on Jackson. Kind of like this. Think I'll rent it for the nostalgia's sake.

INT: I'm definitely a fan of your version of Lord of the Rings, as well as the Peter Jackson one.

BAKSHI: [My version] had more character, more soul, more heart. Less sneaker selling.

We thought it was pretty obvious at several points in the Peter Jackson version that they did take a couple of riffs from you.

Uh huh. They took everything from me. The ring wraiths were taken from me. There was a lot! I mean, I designed the ring wraiths.

Now, I know Peter Jackson said he also saw your films, and obviously it was some degree of an influence. I mean, how do you take that?

Oh, some degree of an influence! Holy shit! Some degree of an influence! What are you talking about?

Hey, I can be diplomatic either way, see? [laughs]

Let me ask you a question. You're a bright lad in Montreal, right? Some degree of an influence. Look. I'm sitting here with a book called Lord of the Rings, and no film to look at. Every fucking thing you're looking at in Rings I"”the design, Gimli, Aragon, the dwarfs, the elves, all that stuff"”I came up with, basically because there was nothing to look at. Peter Jackson looked at it and said, I like that, I don't like that, I can improve on that. Who are you kidding? Look at his Lothlorien. Look at my backgrounds of Lothlorien. Take a look! He had much more to see than I did, and if you don't think he lifted it over and over again, you're wrong. I mean, how did he design a knife in Lord of the Rings? How did he design a sword? How did he design the dwarf with his axe? How did he design the fur around him? Why did Peter Jackson put fur around the dwarf? Because I put fur around the dwarf! Why would the dwarf have fur naturally? You see, I could give you a billion little things. I wish I had a movie to look at. That's fine for Peter [Jackson]. But for you to say "somewhat""”shit. Shit, that's ridiculous.

Well, you know, I've gotta be diplomatic. I've got to be honest"”

What? Why? Why do you gotta be diplomatic?


Because I haven't seen your Lord of the Rings in a bout a decade. So my memory's not as good as it could be.

Then go see it! Go see it. How about under the tree, under the limb, when the wraith on the road is trying to find Frodo, Sam, and the guys were hiding under the bush, under the tree, under the limb on the road, and it was on top? Where did that come from?

See, you answered my next question, which was going to be, how did you feel about that? [laughs]

How did you feel about that? You're the guy trying to be diplomatic, I'm not. How did you feel about that? I'm interested in how you felt.

Well, like I said, I hadn't seen yours in a while, so I didn't have as good a memory as to how much it was. But there were some things that I saw"”

Aren't you curious? Why didn't you take a look to see the shot-for-shot cuts and background for background?

Oh, I'm plenty curious. Unfortunately, I don't get that much sleep as it is. [laughs]

Well, let's take a look. You slap it in, you roll down there at high speed, and there it is. But you don't want to do that, because you'd be facing something you don't want to see, and you wouldn't know how to write about it, and then Peter Jackson will get mad about you, and you can't afford that and he's a hot director. You'd best forget about the whole thing and hide.

Well, we all know I talk to Peter Jackson every week. [laughs]

Did Peter Jackson ever actually contact you at any point?

He can kiss my fucking ass. No he hasn't. He didn't have to contact me. He had my movie. Why would he contact me? He robbed me to begin with. What right did he have to make the Rings?

It does happen on occasion. I don't know all the details behind it, so I had to ask to find out.

Ask me another question.

So we won't be seeing you and Peter Jackson in a bar laughing it up anytime soon.

You won't see me and my first wife, either. There are certain people you don't want to go near, right?

lefty
post #112 of 123
Do you have a hard time staying on or getting back to the relevant topic?

If you feel like posting lengthy and irrelevant dialogs between people, can you please just link to them in the future so we can ignore them without you shitting up the thread?
post #113 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
Are you senile?

No, glutton for punishment. That has to be the only reason someone would argue with you.

Anyway . . .


lefty
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post #114 of 123
i am writing an animated film based on this threak called "5 star thread"
post #115 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by lefty View Post
No, glutton for punishment. That has to be the only reason someone would argue with you.

Finally, we agree on something.
post #116 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by thekunk07 View Post
i am writing an animated film based on this threak called "5 star thread"
Is there going to be nudity?
post #117 of 123
Thinking about interesting techniques I remembered this old Fleishcer Popeye short. I'm not very good at explaining myself, so bear with me. Traditional animation was done by drawing the character onto a clear celluloid and laying that against a painted background. That way you wouldn't have to redraw every background. While you could have perspective drawn into a BG it was difficult to get depth. Disney would eventually invent the multlplane camera stand which allowed for varying depths of BGs and allowed you to rack focus through foreground and background paintings. The multiplane: First used here in The Old Mill. You can see the depth effect in the opening zoom. Back to animation. If you wanted to give the impression that the character was walking across a room you would cycle him walking in one place: Walk cycle: Pan a BG underneath and you have a character walking through a scene: Anyway, Dave Fleischer was a very clever guy and wanted to create a greater sense of realism in his backgrounds. He and/or his cameraman took the Oxberry Stand (the large camera stand used to shoot animation) and flipped it on his side. Now instead of a camera pointing down onto a flat piece of artwork he had mounted so it shot horizontally. The platen (the glass rig used to hold each cel) was also mounted to the horizontal stand. For his background he built huge forced perspective models on a giant turntable. He could then have a character on a walk cycle and instead of panning a flat piece of artwork behind them he would rotate the turntable slightly with each frame. This gave the BG depth and perspective as elements in the foreground would move slightly faster than those in the extreme background. Fleischer called it the Stereoptical Camera or Setback. There could be some argument made that they stole the idea from the stop-motion guys like Willis O'Brien. I don't know. I believe it was only used a few times as it must have cost a bit to build a large set for every short and you could only use it for lateral action but it was pretty cool. Here's a clear example: You can also see the effect when Sinbad is walking camera right, but especially when the Roc is taking off to fly. Popeye the Sailor meets Sinbad the Sailor: Part 2: lefty
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post #118 of 123
I enjoyed Fire and Ice, although I did think the rotoscope was a little much.

On the other hand, if the rotoscope was a stylistic choice for Wizards, it was a great one. I think it worked very well with that flick. Keep it in the background and such.
post #119 of 123
That little documentary got me thinking about Fire and Ice again. Maybe time for another viewing. Always liked Frazetta.

Of course all this talk got me thinking about my favourite animated Robin Hood.






lefty
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post #120 of 123
Looks like TS isn't here anymore. Let me post this for him:
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