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Sartorial mythbusting - Page 79

post #1171 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohm View Post
Very nice jefferyd, thank you (and a nice new avatar). What's the functional difference between extending the canvas into the armhole (steed et al) and not (A&S)? It seems like Mahon at least cuts a cut that is every bit as drapey as A&S. I wonder if this is an issue of Mahon vs. Deboise where Mahon doesn't extend.
Thanks. I'm hoping Edwin will enlighten us as I think this garment was not cut very drapey on purpose. Perhaps Edwin makes his canvas differently according to what his customer wants. It would make sense. The difference between the two being that if the haircloth extends into the armhole and is secured there (as is general practice), when the arm is resting it pushes the entire chest forward. If I were cutting for Foo, for example, I would cut a full chest and full chest canvas as it gives the sort of full, bulbous chest that he likes. This, however, is not drape, as I understand it; in order for the fullness of the chest to form a vertical fold (drape, duh) near the front scye, the haircloth has to be cut out of the way so that it is soft in that area and can drape properly. That's one thing I did wrong on my drape coat- I didn't cut enough haircloth out of the way. It is also more comfortable like this, but can sometimes look messy. So I am guessing that the owner of this dinner suit wanted soft but clean. It's very possible that Vox's coats are done this way too, and from the looks of it, even Mr. Hitchcock is building his chest up a little more these days- the photos Foo took of him show a rather substantial chest piece. I'm going to poke around and try to find some photos to illustrate what I mean. Love the cat. I think I've seen him before.
post #1172 of 1680
OK I'm back with some photos. The purpose of the haircloth chest piece is to provide some support for the chest. Some cut it softer than others, but in order to get a clean chest like this, you need a fair amount of support. Haircloth is very springy and resilient. When it is sewn into the armhole, as you move your arm forward, the whole chest moves. You can see in Will's photo of Joe Hemrajani that the chest is forming a rather full and rich fold from the haircloth underneath- if this were only cloth and canvas it would be limp and would not look like this. We can judge what's going on underneath by watching people move in their clothing. A drape coat is cut with a full chest which the haircloth could support, but instead the haircloth is cut away from the armhole- when you move your arm forward the area is soft so the fullness collects around the armhole in a drapey fold, a bit like the pleat of an action back. The arrows in this photo borrowed from Will's blog show where the haircloth likely stops- ripples like these would not occur with a fully interlined chest unless they used very soft canvas in the chest, which was my guess before opening the A&S coat. If the folds were closer to the scye the appearance might be a bit neater, but that is a subjective thing. This one's harder to see, but the arrow shows where the haircloth stops, in a vertical line down the front. The excess cloth (and there is quite a bit of it) tucks beneath it at the scye.
post #1173 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
Yes. Your shoes are nice. The fabrics are great. I like the overall style from time to time. I don't really like the clothes themselves, though A&S is pleasing to my eyes when done well.

I'll let you off, just this once...
post #1174 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by lasbar View Post
I have always thought German women all look like Claudia or Heidi...


In fact, they do. Except for the ones that are not 1,80m tall, blond and slender.

I was just trying to keep you guys away, along with the Italians and French.
Actually, just saying "Ti amo!" or "J'taime!" with some sort of accent gets them melting, along with lots of dark body hair!
Good thing it's the other way round in Italy when we tall blond, muscular Viking type of Nordics go down there... Sadly not only favoured by the Italian ladies.

For the Italian moments in your life, classic ad from 1993!



This would have been really awesome with him wearing a Rubinacci with sexy buttonholes...
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post #1175 of 1680
Jeffery, do you think there is a way to be able to tell if the canvas goes into the armhole or not simply by feeling through the lining, similar to the ad hoc way of checking if a chest is fully canvassed or fused?

If so, I could check out a few of my Steeds and report back.


- B
post #1176 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
Jeffery, do you think there is a way to be able to tell if the canvas goes into the armhole or not simply by feeling through the lining, similar to the ad hoc way of checking if a chest is fully canvassed or fused?

If so, I could check out a few of my Steeds and report back.


- B

Surprisingly and rather shockingly to me, I actually think this is an interesting exercise and would like to know if there is a way of telling this so I can check.
post #1177 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel View Post
Surprisingly and rather shockingly to me, I actually think this is an interesting exercise and would like to know if there is a way of telling this so I can check.

Are you thinking of frisking one of your Volpes?


- B
post #1178 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
Jeffery, do you think there is a way to be able to tell if the canvas goes into the armhole or not simply by feeling through the lining, similar to the ad hoc way of checking if a chest is fully canvassed or fused?

If so, I could check out a few of my Steeds and report back.


- B

I think that if you grab the chest from the outside as if you were copping a feel, you would feel the edge of the haircloth. I would find it very obvious- there will be a vertical "ridge" where it stops

This is the A&S- note the space between the haircloth and the scye



This is a very firm commercial front- note the haircloth all the way to the scye

post #1179 of 1680
That break before the scye is to A&S what the strap and buckle design is to Hermes. Indeed, one of the things that I did not love about my Steed suits is the way the chest swelled out without breaking. To me, the break is drape, or at least an essential part of it. I didn't quite get that back then, but ordering those suits helped me learn it.
post #1180 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
That break before the scye is to A&S what the strap and buckle design is to Hermes. Indeed, one of the things that I did not love about my Steed suits is the way the chest swelled out without breaking. To me, the break is drape, or at least an essential part of it. I didn't quite get that back then, but ordering those suits helped me learn it.

Most of what I have seen from them looked more like Will's suit, which to me just looks lumpy. I don't like it. It wasn't until I got my hands on the old A&S suit which had a cleaner chest and more defined drape that I understood it. That makes more sense to me.
post #1181 of 1680
So is there a coordinated time when we Drapists will all be copping a feel on our coats? I'm busy tonight, but the weekend looks good.

--Andre
post #1182 of 1680
I wonder how much of the canvas construction is left up to the tailor as opposed to being dictated by the cutter? I remember reading somewhere that certain tailors made firmer coats than others within the same firm (I think it was on Mahon's blog) so the work would be parceled out accordingly.
post #1183 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Y View Post
So is there a coordinated time when we Drapists will all be copping a feel on our coats? I'm busy tonight, but the weekend looks good.

--Andre

group grope!
post #1184 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post
group grope!

Sounds fun. I am still waiting to be raped by the Drapist. I already know that there is much structure in my stuff.

- M
post #1185 of 1680
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
I think that you have to be careful here extending one sample as being representative. There are many things about the A&S suit that jefferyd took apart that would seem to be different than what we see from A&S today. A lot of time has passed. The A&S suit that he took apart dates to a period when there four senior coatmakers at A&S (five if you count Edwin, who went from striker to cutter very quickly), each of whom cut a bit differently and each of whom who would tend to use a particular tailor within the shop. So, I think there was a degree of variety then sufficient to encompass what you might see as differences between Tom's and Edwin's work today. For example, some cutters then were known to do a particularly sympathetic job with portly clients; others, not.

- B

This is a very good point and is the only issue with jefferyd's work - we need a larger, and in some cases more recent, sample size.

I've seen a number of people mention that different cutters at A&S did a better job for portly clients. It always makes me wonder what that means and what the difference is between a flattering suit on a slim gentleman and a flattering suit on a portly gentleman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jefferyd View Post
Thanks. I'm hoping Edwin will enlighten us as I think this garment was not cut very drapey on purpose. Perhaps Edwin makes his canvas differently according to what his customer wants. It would make sense.

The difference between the two being that if the haircloth extends into the armhole and is secured there (as is general practice), when the arm is resting it pushes the entire chest forward. If I were cutting for Foo, for example, I would cut a full chest and full chest canvas as it gives the sort of full, bulbous chest that he likes. This, however, is not drape, as I understand it; in order for the fullness of the chest to form a vertical fold (drape, duh) near the front scye, the haircloth has to be cut out of the way so that it is soft in that area and can drape properly. That's one thing I did wrong on my drape coat- I didn't cut enough haircloth out of the way. It is also more comfortable like this, but can sometimes look messy.

So I am guessing that the owner of this dinner suit wanted soft but clean. It's very possible that Vox's coats are done this way too, and from the looks of it, even Mr. Hitchcock is building his chest up a little more these days- the photos Foo took of him show a rather substantial chest piece.

I'm going to poke around and try to find some photos to illustrate what I mean.

Love the cat. I think I've seen him before.

OK I'm back with some photos.

The purpose of the haircloth chest piece is to provide some support for the chest. Some cut it softer than others, but in order to get a clean chest like this, you need a fair amount of support. Haircloth is very springy and resilient.

When it is sewn into the armhole, as you move your arm forward, the whole chest moves. You can see in Will's photo of Joe Hemrajani that the chest is forming a rather full and rich fold from the haircloth underneath- if this were only cloth and canvas it would be limp and would not look like this. We can judge what's going on underneath by watching people move in their clothing.

A drape coat is cut with a full chest which the haircloth could support, but instead the haircloth is cut away from the armhole- when you move your arm forward the area is soft so the fullness collects around the armhole in a drapey fold, a bit like the pleat of an action back. The arrows in this photo borrowed from Will's blog show where the haircloth likely stops- ripples like these would not occur with a fully interlined chest unless they used very soft canvas in the chest, which was my guess before opening the A&S coat. If the folds were closer to the scye the appearance might be a bit neater, but that is a subjective thing.

This one's harder to see, but the arrow shows where the haircloth stops, in a vertical line down the front. The excess cloth (and there is quite a bit of it) tucks beneath it at the scye.

This is interesting. Is the mechanism for drape in the back the same?
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