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Watches losing popularity - Page 7

post #91 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
THat's true, no one does. Philippe is very open that be gets the bridges and baseplates, dials made by external specialists. His specialty is finishing. There are some companies that come very close to making everything in-house, like Glashuette Original. They even make screws and wheels in-house, a rare thing. They do get some parts (may 10-15% of a movement), like balance spring from their sister companies in the Swatch Group.

Everyone buys escapement springs from Swatch...ironically, only Rolex has the ability to mass-produce springs like Swatch does.

Jon.
post #92 of 119
1. So in short you think Rolex advertising is BS. So?

2. Consumers think Rolex is the best watch in the world, it is not an irrational assumption. It keeps good time, can be serviced quickly and cheaply (relatively), retains a high proportion of its value and is a status symbol. What more does an average consumer want?

3. Having hollow centre links does not make for a fragile watch. A Rolex sub with a hollow centre linked bracelet is STILL a tough watch that some profession divers use. That is not an "asinine assumption", that is a fact.

4. My statement about not making your own baseplate or bridges is an example of where the logic you use applied to another component. Your authoritative nitpicking does not make any sense.

Well Jon, I do apologise for arguing with "personal feelings and conjecture", since you obviously have a wealth of knowledge having worked in a watch and jewellery store. If only staff in all retail shops displayed your level of knowledge.

It's no wonder you no longer participate on any of the internet forums like Timezone or ThePurists. Hardly anyone can match your level of experience, since it's a fact that most people there are like me, with no industry knowledge at all, just many asinine assumptions accumulated over years of talking to industry, visiting manufactures, Basel fair and SIHH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
What do you mean how is it untrue? It's an assembly line! And a mass-produced one at that. I mean, every watch is "˜hand-assembled' in one way or another, but there is a big difference between a Rolex and a Blancpain. One is made in a massive automated factory and the other is made in a large farmhouse. You really can't compare watches to airplanes.

Dude, of course its cutting corners if they mention how tough the sports watches (have you ever read Rolexes advertising, seen their promo videos, read their factory books?) are only to have them utilize center links that are hollow, whereas even much cheaper brands use solid center links. And of course they stretch...the reason they changed this is because the internet utilized peoples ability to research Rolexes corner cutting, and think twice about buy one.

Not making your own movements or plates is not cutting corners; you A) really don't get what I'm talking about, B) don't understand the whole issue regarding in-house / out-sourced movements / parts.

Most people think Rolex is high-horology. Sorry, that's what they think...same reason they think Mercedes is the end all to be all of cars. It's the name that sells. People will buy Rolex simply because it is a Rolex, and nothing else. And that's easily 75% or the Rolex-buying public. They simply think it's the best due to Rolexes misleading advertising and the general cache that follows the brand.

Nothing personal, but as someone who worked in the industry and had a great interest in horology as a hobby as well, I have a pretty good understanding of what I'm talking about, and coming in from left field to question that with not facts, but your own assumptions is asinine. This is why I don't normally get into watch discussions, because at the end of the day I am fighting fact and experience with personal feelings and conjecture.

Jon.
post #93 of 119
Well Jon, obviously what watchmakers tell me vary from what they tell you. So be it.

Of course AP replaces parts, I should have made myself more clear. Rolex replaces parts that can be refinished/adjusted to work, whilst the higher end firms do the refinishing and adjustment because of the nature of the movement.

Jon I am NOT questioning your experience from my 3 or 4 watches, but from what industry professionals have told me. I admit I have NO industry experience except as an outsider. Since yourself as an industry professional, may I ask in what capacity did you serve in the industry? And for how long? It would be nice to how to accumulate the vast wealth of knowledge you have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
You are talking about the outside of the case, and I was speaking about the movement. Simply seeing a lot of Rolexes that wear well isn't the same as year's worth of discussions with a watchmaker who has been working on Rolex for over 25 years, it just isn't.

AP replaces parts, of course they do! As does Patek! As does every other major brand in the industry. Do they charge you for the parts? Of course, but what do you think they only fix parts? Since when? Also, it's more expensive to service a JLC movement (used in JLC and AP watches) because the movements are finer and take more handiwork to work on; it's all relative. You can't question my actual experience in the industry by the 3 or 4 times you have sent watches in for service. You are judging me for something you yourself don't have evidence for.

Jon.
post #94 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
1. So in short you think Rolex advertising is BS. So?

2. Consumers think Rolex is the best watch in the world, it is not an irrational assumption. It keeps good time, can be serviced quickly and cheaply (relatively), retains a high proportion of its value and is a status symbol. What more does an average consumer want?

3. Having hollow centre links does not make for a fragile watch. A Rolex sub with a hollow centre linked bracelet is STILL a tough watch that some profession divers use. That is not an "asinine assumption", that is a fact.

4. My statement about not making your own baseplate or bridges is an example of where the logic you use applied to another component. Your authoritative nitpicking does not make any sense.

Well Jon, I do apologise for arguing with "personal feelings and conjecture", since you obviously have a wealth of knowledge having worked in a watch and jewellery store. If only staff in all retail shops displayed your level of knowledge.

It's no wonder you no longer participate on any of the internet forums like Timezone or ThePurists. Hardly anyone can match your level of experience, since it's a fact that most people there are like me, with no industry knowledge at all, just many asinine assumptions accumulated over years of talking to industry, visiting manufactures, Basel fair and SIHH.

You're arguments (esp. #4) make no sense, you are trying a run-around game of tactical logic which does not work, since you responded to things I did not actually post, and then I called you out for it and then you denounce me, as if going to the Basel fair is the same as actually working in the industry...obviously it is you who is a regular Nick Hayek.

You have to learn to read what I am writing and what I am obviously implying, you mention something, and I just mention something else in passing, as per your comments...not everything is contradiction.

Again, as I previously mentioned, this is why I don't get into these types of discussions, because people who don't post often (when is the last time you posted on SF?) enough, and have no established history of not being full of it, randomly pop-up and start posting asinine arguments.

If the bracelet stretches, it's fragile and cheap, and for the price Rolex charges, it's a joke on the consumer. Luckily, they finally changed. If you want to buy a Rolex, than fine, go do so...but don't push them to a higher level of quality than they truly are.

Jon.
post #95 of 119
Are you certain about that absolute statement? Some companies get their balance springs from JLC and Renaud et Papi, I know for a fact these two firms can make balance springs on a large scale. Not on the scale of Nivarox, but enough for a small firm with production in the hundreds. Lange manufactures its own balance springs, admittedly only a few for select models like the Double Split. Debethune gets theirs from a factory in France NOT related to the Swatch Group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
Everyone buys escapement springs from Swatch...ironically, only Rolex has the ability to mass-produce springs like Swatch does.

Jon.
post #96 of 119
It is true I don't post often here, I don't have much knowledge to contribute with regards to matters sartorial. Since I am full of asinine arguemnts, I like let the matter rest. You obviously know much more than anyone else here, or on any of the watch forums for that matter. I still would like to know in what role you worked in for the watch industry, to have such a vast store of knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
Again, as I previously mentioned, this is why I don't get into these types of discussions, because people who don't post often (when is the last time you posted on SF?) enough, and have no established history of not being full of it, randomly pop-up and start posting asinine arguments.
post #97 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
Well Jon, obviously what watchmakers tell me vary from what they tell you. So be it.

Of course AP replaces parts, I should have made myself more clear. Rolex replaces parts that can be refinished/adjusted to work, whilst the higher end firms do the refinishing and adjustment because of the nature of the movement.

Jon I am NOT questioning your experience from my 3 or 4 watches, but from what industry professionals have told me. I admit I have NO industry experience except as an outsider. Since yourself as an industry professional, may I ask in what capacity did you serve in the industry? And for how long? It would be nice to how to accumulate the vast wealth of knowledge you have.

Condensed version:

Other than the retail high-end jewelry store, lots of time on TZ before it went downhill and was purchased by Ashford, also one of the former moderators is a friend of mine, a lot of time reading books on the subject, from pictorials to mechanical guides (god, trying to figure out how a repeater worked without any technical training took a while luckily RGM, the man not the company was gracious enough to explain it to me in a simplified way), lots of time spent talking to other collectors, time spent talking to other stores in the area, other watchmakers (there is a very good Breitling-authorized watchmaker in Bal Harbour, BTW if anyone needs service), and time spent talking to the reps and other people who work at the back end of the industry here in the US.

Plus, time spent talking to some of the more knowledgeable customers (when a guy owns 20 Patek's and knows the movements by heart, and understand the technical differences between one generation / variation of movement vs. the other (ex. Cal. 315 vs. cal. 330), well, that's one informed customer). Plus, a lot of them visited the US / Overseas operations of the watch companies and would share what they were told, thus I was able to get a different perspective and answers to questions that I might not have thought to ask.

Are you really surprised that watchmakers say contradicting things? You know what surprised me? The people at Patek (in NYC) actually liked the Breitling I was wearing...that's surprising.

Jon.
post #98 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
Are you certain about that absolute statement? Some companies get their balance springs from JLC and Renaud et Papi, I know for a fact these two firms can make balance springs on a large scale. Not on the scale of Nivarox, but enough for a small firm with production in the hundreds. Lange manufactures its own balance springs, admittedly only a few for select models like the Double Split. Debethune gets theirs from a factory in France NOT related to the Swatch Group.
That’s very recent. Ever since Swatch decided to cut back production, other companies started to ramp up. But, everyone, at one point or another has used Swatch springs, either mainsprings or escapements. I never said that it was an absolute statement, I never stated how many springs or how often they purchased them, but everyone has at one point or another bought springs from Swatch, even if not directly (NOS movements, etc…). Jon.
post #99 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
It is true I don't post often here, I don't have much knowledge to contribute with regards to matters sartorial. Since I am full of asinine arguemnts, I like let the matter rest. You obviously know much more than anyone else here, or on any of the watch forums for that matter. I still would like to know in what role you worked in for the watch industry, to have such a vast store of knowledge.

I don't oftentimes post on the sartorial forums either, but when I do start to post in a forum, I try to do so humbly. I don't claim to speak about many things with authority; I can however speak about horology, which encompassed a rather part of my life.

I was only noticing and noting your approach and not your intentions; they are separate issues, and I don't want a misunderstanding between one another.

Jon.
post #100 of 119
I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable person with regards to horology, but I have had 7-8 years of experience as a collector and part-time journalist. I do have contact with the industry at a very different level from what you have had, but that doesn't matter. You believe very strongly in your own arguments and regard your experience "in the industry" as far superior to anyone else's. None of what I say will change that. All the best if you ever decide to return to the industry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
I don't oftentimes post on the sartorial forums either, but when I do start to post in a forum, I try to do so humbly. I don't claim to speak about many things with authority; I can however speak about horology, which encompassed a rather part of my life.

I was only noticing and noting your approach and not your intentions; they are separate issues, and I don't want a misunderstanding between one another.

Jon.
post #101 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
I do not claim to be the most knowledgeable person with regards to horology, but I have had 7-8 years of experience as a collector and part-time journalist. I do have contact with the industry at a very different level from what you have had, but that doesn't matter. You believe very strongly in your own arguments and regard your experience "in the industry" as far superior to anyone else's. None of what I say will change that. All the best if you ever decide to return to the industry.

I didn't say that: "You believe very strongly in your own arguments and regard your experience "in the industry" as far superior to anyone else's"). What I said was that for the most part people tend to randomly argue things in which they don't have a lot of experience, and at the same time making arguments, which to me don't make a lot of sense, based on what I wrote. Thus, my reaction is, in my eyes wholly reasonable.

My approach to the industry has been hands on, but I listened to what people have written and said and I have accumulated and combined that knowledge, obviously your experience will vary. If you mention something I think is correct, I won't disagree, but if I think it is incorrect I will point it out, especially if you call me on it. The watch industry is full of innuendos and back door dealings, discerning what is hype, rumor, lies, and the truth is not always as clear cut as we would hope...alas, as long as you enjoy collecting watches, and enjoy what you own that's all that truly matters.

Jon.
post #102 of 119
You assume I don't have a lot of experience, and that yours is superior to mine. As a result, my arguments are flawed and based on poor knowledge/hearsay; I am asinine and illogical, according to you. That doesn't seem reasonable to me, but then again, I don't post here enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
What I said was that for the most part people tend to randomly argue things in which they don't have a lot of experience, and at the same time making arguments, which to me don't make a lot of sense, based on what I wrote.
post #103 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJX
You assume I don't have a lot of experience, and that yours is superior to mine. As a result, my arguments are flawed and based on poor knowledge/hearsay; I am asinine and illogical, according to you. That doesn't seem reasonable to me, but then again, I don't post here enough.

If that's the way you want to combine it, then fine that is your choice, but you should understand that each one of those points was made regarding a specific post and a specific point, which you made. But, if that's how you want to take it, whatever. Again, your post shows this type of tactical logic, which keeps me from posting about watches, here or elsewhere. There is one board I still frequent regarding the subject because they haven't, yet succumbed as others have to a lesser level. I suggest you try actually reading my posts before responding to them.

Watches may be losing popularity, but I guess watch debates aren't.

Jon.
post #104 of 119
SJX is a well known watch aficionado.
ImageWis you also know and love your watches.
Can't we all just get along

BTW, only Seiko has the capability to make every last component of their watches, including the lubricating oils. From a technical point of view, they are the only true "In-house" manufacturer.
post #105 of 119
Quote:
Originally Posted by edmorel
Can't we all just get along

BTW, only Seiko has the capability to make every last component of their watches, including the lubricating oils. From a technical point of view, they are the only true "In-house" manufacturer.

Ed, you give the best advice

Rolex has enough money to make everything in-house, if they wish. Also, they could design movements that use no oils (another long and drawn out debate I don't want to get into, some people like oil in movements, some don't, I don't have enough technical expertise to know which one is truly better).

Jon.
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