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New bespoke suit... - Page 6

post #76 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitonbrioni
Bespoke seems such a briar patch. It appears that they a more than few out there who are ready to take advantage of the bespoke beginners. Reading the forums should be required before going bespoke.

I wouldn't call ordering from a mail order tailor by sending him your measurements "bespoke."
post #77 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitonbrioni
Bespoke seems such a briar patch. It appears that they a more than few out there who are ready to take advantage of the bespoke beginners. Reading the forums should be required before going bespoke.

Can you clarify what "bespoke beginners" you're referring to is? +1 vote for most vague post of the day.
post #78 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchapel
Can you clarify what "bespoke beginners" you're referring to is? +1 vote for most vague post of the day.

I'm just guessing that he's referring to people who have not gone bespoke before. That's just the reason though why I wouldn't call mail ordering from foreign makers "bespoke." If you go to an actual bespoke tailor that person is going to make recommendations for you and guide you through the process (if they are worth their salt). If you decide that you want something stupid or that will look horrible on you they well make you aware of that fact and then allow you to make your decision (though, the final decision should always belong to the cusomter). With the mail order guys, you just order and they give you what you order without being able to see you and make any recommendations. There's a million things out there that you might not even think of if you don't have experience getting bespoke suits made when ordering through the mail, and there a lot of small measurements that can't be accurately conveyed over the mail. Also, ordering through the mail does not allow the tailor to make adjustments based on fittings before the final product is delivered.

Nevertheless, for some people paying a few hundred from Baron or whoever is the best option, but don't expect it to be as good as a bespoke or MTM suit, or even as good as a decent RTW suit.
post #79 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by odoreater
I'm just guessing that he's referring to people who have not gone bespoke before. That's just the reason though why I wouldn't call mail ordering from foreign makers "bespoke." If you go to an actual bespoke tailor that person is going to make recommendations for you and guide you through the process (if they are worth their salt). If you decide that you want something stupid or that will look horrible on you they well make you aware of that fact and then allow you to make your decision (though, the final decision should always belong to the cusomter). With the mail order guys, you just order and they give you what you order without being able to see you and make any recommendations. There's a million things out there that you might not even think of if you don't have experience getting bespoke suits made when ordering through the mail, and there a lot of small measurements that can't be accurately conveyed over the mail. Also, ordering through the mail does not allow the tailor to make adjustments based on fittings before the final product is delivered.

Nevertheless, for some people paying a few hundred from Baron or whoever is the best option, but don't expect it to be as good as a bespoke or MTM suit, or even as good as a decent RTW suit.
'

I disagree a little. You speak like you are an authority on internet tailors. Have you in fact purchased a suit from any of the internet tailors? This thread has proven that you can get a decent suit, made to your specifications, that fits significantly better than a RTW suit. Ask Jovan, or look at the photos he posted. Granted, it has some pitfalls. You make a mistake in your measurements, and you're going to receive an ill-fitting suit. And yes, if you can go bespoke, go bespoke. But most can't.

Now I am not arguing the virtue of a bespoke fitting. Obviously there is no replacement to this, but it seems to me, if you can measure well, and know what you want, you can order a pretty decent suit for about the same you would spend on a RTW suit. To me, this seems like a pretty good option for those who either cannot afford a bespoke suit, or simply do not have the means to get to someone who tailors bespoke suits. Bespoke tailors are a rarity these days, especially in the US.

Also, I've sent several test emails to Baron Boutique, including pictures. His recommendations seem on par with advice I have received from tailors and various fora (people whose opinions I trust wholeheartedly) So while you do not have the face-to-face interaction, being able to communicate effectively what you want and being able to provide pictures of yourself for recommendation seems to be a happy medium between full bespoke and RTW.
post #80 of 131
I have not ordered from an internet tailor because I don't feel like throwing even $300 around on something so inherently risky and RTW suits fit me just fine so I have no need for bespoke or MTM or internet tailors. Am I speaking as an authority on the subject? Well, no, but I've been around a long time and I've seen more people post about how disappointed they are with their mail order suits than people like Jovan who have had good experiences. In the 2 years that I've been visiting this forum I've seen many people disappointed with their mail order suits. In fact, I've seen a lot of people disappointed with their Hemrajani or Chan suits where the tailor actually measured them in person but did not do a fitting. There's a reason why bespoke tailors do more than one fitting and the reason is that most of the time they don't get it right the first time around based on just the person's measurements.

Do so many of you have such ideosyncrasies that you have to order an MTM suit to get it to fit and can't just get a RTW suit with alterations?

Look, I'm not saying that bespoke is the only way to go. I personally don't go bespoke and don't plan on going bespoke because I'm fine with RTW suits and I don't think the extra cost of bespoke or MTM is worth it to me for the marginal gain in fit that I would gain. I've posted pictures on here of my RTW suits and the feedback has generally been positive, so I don't see any reason to either waste money by trying something as inherently risky as ordering through the mail or something as inherently expensive as getting a bespoke suit. If people want to try the mail order thing then that's fine, but just be aware of the significant risks you are taking.
post #81 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by odoreater
I have not ordered from an internet tailor because I don't feel like throwing even $300 around on something so inherently risky and RTW suits fit me just fine so I have no need for bespoke or MTM or internet tailors. Am I speaking as an authority on the subject? Well, no, but I've been around a long time and I've seen more people post about how disappointed they are with their mail order suits than people like Jovan who have had good experiences. In the 2 years that I've been visiting this forum I've seen many people disappointed with their mail order suits. In fact, I've seen a lot of people disappointed with their Hemrajani or Chan suits where the tailor actually measured them in person but did not do a fitting. There's a reason why bespoke tailors do more than one fitting and the reason is that most of the time they don't get it right the first time around based on just the person's measurements.

Do so many of you have such ideosyncrasies that you have to order an MTM suit to get it to fit and can't just get a RTW suit with alterations?

Look, I'm not saying that bespoke is the only way to go. I personally don't go bespoke and don't plan on going bespoke because I'm fine with RTW suits and I don't think the extra cost of bespoke or MTM is worth it to me for the marginal gain in fit that I would gain. I've posted pictures on here of my RTW suits and the feedback has generally been positive, so I don't see any reason to either waste money by trying something as inherently risky as ordering through the mail or something as inherently expensive as getting a bespoke suit. If people want to try the mail order thing then that's fine, but just be aware of the significant risks you are taking.

All good points. However, in my specific case, RTW suits do not fit me properly. I've attempted alterations at a plethora of tailors, and nothing seems to fit right. So for people like me, MTM and bespoke are the way to go. It's a bit more costly in some instances, but if you get the fit you want, does it matter if its RTW, MTM, or bespoke (I think we need an abbreviation for bespoke ; how about BTS [bespoke tailored suit] or BTM [bespoke tailor measured]...). For you, as an example, RTW fits you to your liking. That's fantastic; some just are not as fortunate to have RTW fit to their liking. So at least there are options that exist.
post #82 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchapel
All good points. However, in my specific case, RTW suits do not fit me properly. I've attempted alterations at a plethora of tailors, and nothing seems to fit right. So for people like me, MTM and bespoke are the way to go. It's a bit more costly in some instances, but if you get the fit you want, does it matter if its RTW, MTM, or bespoke (I think we need an abbreviation for bespoke ; how about BTS [bespoke tailored suit] or BTM [bespoke tailor measured]...). For you, as an example, RTW fits you to your liking. That's fantastic; some just are not as fortunate to have RTW fit to their liking. So at least there are options that exist.

Ok, I understand if RTW suits don't fit then you have to go this route. But, you might want to think of it this way. I've ordered plenty of mail order shirts from chan and hemrajani. From Chan I didn't get the measurements just how I wanted them until about the 4th shirt. I got the measurements just how I wanted them from Hemrajani by the 2 or 3 shirt (because I measured a shirt that fit me well and sent him those measurements instead of measuring off of my body). So that's about 6 or 7 shirts that I have now that don't fit exactly the way I want them to and about 2 or 3 shirts that don't fit at all (the usual culprit is that the sleeves ended up too short). If you don't get your measurements right the first time that $300 suit suddenly become a lot more expensive, and that's been the experience of a lot of posters over the past couple of years.

But again, if you have no other option then you have no other option.
post #83 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by odoreater
Ok, I understand if RTW suits don't fit then you have to go this route. But, you might want to think of it this way. I've ordered plenty of mail order shirts from chan and hemrajani. From Chan I didn't get the measurements just how I wanted them until about the 4th shirt. I got the measurements just how I wanted them from Hemrajani by the 2 or 3 shirt (because I measured a shirt that fit me well and sent him those measurements instead of measuring off of my body). So that's about 6 or 7 shirts that I have now that don't fit exactly the way I want them to and about 2 or 3 shirts that don't fit at all (the usual culprit is that the sleeves ended up too short). If you don't get your measurements right the first time that $300 suit suddenly become a lot more expensive, and that's been the experience of a lot of posters over the past couple of years.

But again, if you have no other option then you have no other option.

Right, I definitely see your point and agree with you. You DO take a risk when you order tailored clothing over the internet. But, if you end up getting the fit you like when all is said and done, isn't it worth it? For some it is, others it isn't. As long as you don't expect PERFECTION, as you said a couple of posts ago, then I think internet tailors can be a happy medium, as I have said also. It seems most are satisfied once they've achieved the proper fit; but again, and I do agree with you here, it's a risk. But then so is walking down the street these days.
post #84 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchapel
I disagree a little. You speak like you are an authority on internet tailors. Have you in fact purchased a suit from any of the internet tailors?

[snip]

Also, I've sent several test emails to Baron Boutique, including pictures. His recommendations seem on par with advice I have received from tailors and various fora (people whose opinions I trust wholeheartedly) So while you do not have the face-to-face interaction, being able to communicate effectively what you want and being able to provide pictures of yourself for recommendation seems to be a happy medium between full bespoke and RTW.
There seems to be a pretty big disconnect between those two paragraphs above. How many suits do you have from the different tailors of which you speak?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchapel
This thread has proven that you can get a decent suit, made to your specifications, that fits significantly better than a RTW suit. Ask Jovan, or look at the photos he posted. Granted, it has some pitfalls. You make a mistake in your measurements, and you're going to receive an ill-fitting suit. And yes, if you can go bespoke, go bespoke. But most can't.
No, it has not proved anything of the sort. It only shows that Jovan is happy with what he received. For all we know, Jovan had never seen anything than a burlap bag before. If you're set on spending your money on a budget internet tailor, go right ahead, but you are unequivocally overstating the value they provide.
post #85 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by dah328
There seems to be a pretty big disconnect between those two paragraphs above. How many suits do you have from the different tailors of which you speak?

I have not purchased any suits from such tailors -- yet. But I have taken a step further and contacted several of them to see how they respond, gauge the advice they've given, etc. I never said I had purchased any suits from there, nor do I claim to be an authority. But, like odoreater, I have read forums for a couple years and have seen both good and bad. But I like to go based on my own experiences; and having contacted internet tailors with my specifications, and pictures from various angles, and also their recommendations, I think I have taken it a step further than making claims that they cannot provide you recommendations, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dah328
No, it has not proved anything of the sort. It only shows that Jovan is happy with what he received. For all we know, Jovan had never seen anything than a burlap bag before. If you're set on spending your money on a budget internet tailor, go right ahead, but you are unequivocally overstating the value they provide.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Since Jovan started this thread, explained what he purchased, and his happiness (aside from his measuring error, which had it been correct would have been a perfect suit according to Jovan), I would say it did prove that. It proved it's possible to order a suit online and have it fit to your liking. And if you've read any of Jovan's posts, you'll know that his sartorial knowledge is arguably better than most around his age group. How am I "unequivocally overstating the value they provide"? I fail to see your point on the latter.
post #86 of 131
Please stop using the term "bespoke" for mail-order tailors. thanks
post #87 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203
Please stop using the term "bespoke" for mail-order tailors. thanks

Please stop telling people how to speak. Thank you.

But I do agree. I don't call internet tailors bespoke; but I do call them MTM.
post #88 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchapel
Please stop telling people how to speak. Thank you.

But I do agree. I don't call internet tailors bespoke; but I do call them MTM.


Literally, of course, MTM is exactly what they are.

MTM has a kind of technical meaning as a term of art that does not fit perfectly with what I, at least, assume BB or someone similar is doing. But I agree that it is misleading to equate Internet ordering with a bespoke experience in which multiple fittings are done with the actual suit in the process of construction. I'm wearing a bespoke suit now, and while it is hardly the best money could have bought, it fits like a dream, which it would not have had I not been fitted by the tailor who made it along the way.
post #89 of 131
I consider a suit is bespoke if it was made from custom patterns, custom design, custom measurements. Only thing really missing is fitting but this is due to location issue.
post #90 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimslade
Literally, of course, MTM is exactly what they are.

MTM has a kind of technical meaning as a term of art that does not fit perfectly with what I, at least, assume BB or someone similar is doing. But I agree that it is misleading to equate Internet ordering with a bespoke experience in which multiple fittings are done with the actual suit in the process of construction. I'm wearing a bespoke suit now, and while it is hardly the best money could have bought, it fits like a dream, which it would not have had I not been fitted by the tailor who made it along the way.

And that, sir, is the true definition of bespoke. But that begs the question: does bespoke simply mean the physical interaction with a master tailor who sees the construction of the suit along the way, or are we to intepret it for its standing definition:

Quote:
via http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bespoke
British English term for clothing made at a customer's behest, and exactly to the customer's specification. Bespoke clothing is created without use of a pre-existing pattern, differentiating it from made to measure, which alters a pattern to fit the customer.
(emphasis mine)

Now, there is no true way to tell if a mail order suit is MTM or bespoke based on that definition. Or is there? My emails to Baron Boutique, et al. have asked this question:

Quote:
Me: Do you make the suits using a new pattern or do you use a pre-existing pattern?

His reply: Thank you for your question. No, we do not use a pre-existing pattern. Each suit order has its own pattern created, based on the measurements you provide.

Is there a way, by looking at the suit construction, etc. to find out if the pattern is in fact altered from a pre-existing pattern? I am not aware of any.

So, after thinking about it, based on Baron Boutique's reply and the definition of bespoke, they are making bespoke suits, but you are missing out on the "bespoke experience". Bespoke and bespoke experience are entirely different things then.
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