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Keller - Page 3

post #31 of 169
1/1/10 at 8:53pm
Thread Starter 
I went to Gary Danko earlier this week, and the "experience" was better than the food. Not that the food was bad, but I had very high expectations which were not met. It just was not as good (for me) as it had been before.

But the service was as good as ever, and perhaps even better.
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post #32 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek View Post
How can you say that? You're going to the wrong restaurants, my friend. But, maybe you're complaining about the same things that made me want to learn to cook. You don't need to be a bigtimer to have great dining experiences once in a while, just do your due diligence before you pick a restaurant.

This may be true, but I think I pay much more attention to the food than the experience. Remembering past dining experiences, I can distinctly recall good food on many occasions, but not so much on good experiences.
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post #33 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNWorn View Post
This may be true, but I think I pay much more attention to the food than the experience. Remembering past dining experiences, I can distinctly recall good food on many occasions, but not so much on good experiences.

What restaurants have been good experiences for you? Are there any great restaurants that were average or even mediocre experiences?
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post #34 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:17pm
I mean I think it's great that TFL book has sold almost 400k copies. The united states desperately need to get to a point where food culture has far more to do with good home cooking and real dining experiences rather than the synthesized, souless, even tragic shit that people people shovel into their faces every day. I think food says so much about a people and as the wealthiest and most prosperous nation on earth, the united states is failing spectacularly when it comes to food. It is revelatory about the culture as a whole, and if in some small tiny way, a few ardent foodies try to make something from the TFL book then great.

Granted, without technique, no amount of great produce and step by step instruction is going to help you.
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post #35 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:21pm
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Originally Posted by SField View Post
What restaurants have been good experiences for you? Are there any great restaurants that were average or even mediocre experiences?
For example, I ate at Joe's in Chicago a few years ago and still remember the dining experience. When I said "experience" earlier, I was referring to the general day-to-day dining experiences, where it's rare for me to drop more than $100 for a two-person meal. For this type of dining, good service is rare, and most are forgettable mediocre ones.
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post #36 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNWorn View Post
For example, I ate at Joe's in Chicago a few years ago and still remember the dining experience. When I said "experience" earlier, I was referring to the general day-to-day dining experiences, where it's rare for me to drop more than $100 for a two-person meal. For this type of dining, good service is rare, and most are forgettable mediocre ones.
eh... I think that's part of the problem then. I wouldn't really go to somewhere like Joe's for a great experience... or very interesting food either. That's my problem when discussing food with most people. Their experiences with fine dining have been at places like Joe's or like... Gibsons... and because these people clearly have taste, the fairly mediocre food and service at these places puts them off from truly great fine dining experiences. In fairness I have only had drinks at Joe's so I don't know much about it, but the typically bro-ish type shit that goes on in those kinds of protein festivals doesn't usually appeal to me that much.
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post #37 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SField View Post
eh... I think that's part of the problem then. I wouldn't really go to somewhere like Joe's for a great experience... or very interesting food either.

That's my problem when discussing food with most people. Their experiences with fine dining have been at places like Joe's or like... Gibsons... and because these people clearly have taste, the fairly mediocre food and service at these places puts them off from truly great fine dining experiences.

In fairness I have only had drinks at Joe's so I don't know much about it, but the typically bro-ish type shit that goes on in those kinds of protein festivals doesn't usually appeal to me that much.

I understand what you mean. But I didn't go to Joe's specifically for the experience. We happened to be in Chicago, and I wanted a good steak, so that was where we went. I just remembered the experience because it was good. It could've been Bob's Pizzeria, or John's Cheesesteak. If it's good, it's good, regardless of the name on the front of the building or the prices on the menu.

We all know your feelings toward a piece of steak, so I won't even go there.

I also ate at Rick Bayless's Frontera for lunch (wanted to go to Topolowhatever, but we were in a hurry), and the food was fantastic, but I can't recall how good the service was.
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post #38 of 169
1/1/10 at 9:56pm
I don't see what's so complicated about most of these recipes. Three kinds of meat ground at home is how I make meatloaf and meatballs as a standard. When people serve a hunk of ground beef in that thick supermarket grind it just feels wrong. It tastes like a mediocre burger with no bun (which, for the most part, it pretty much is).
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post #39 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkNWorn View Post
I understand what you mean. But I didn't go to Joe's specifically for the experience. We happened to be in Chicago, and I wanted a good steak, so that was where we went. I just remembered the experience because it was good. It could've been Bob's Pizzeria, or John's Cheesesteak. If it's good, it's good, regardless of the name on the front of the building or the prices on the menu.

We all know your feelings toward a piece of steak, so I won't even go there.

I also ate at Rick Bayless's Frontera for lunch (wanted to go to Topolowhatever, but we were in a hurry), and the food was fantastic, but I can't recall how good the service was.

No I love steak like everyone else, it just gets elevated to some level of nirvana that I don't quite get.

I went to David Burke's again a week ago and the steak was good. I'd say the food is above the level of most steak houses, but not at the level of Charlie Palmer or Craft Steak. The ambiance, to me, is like a restaurant at an airport though. It's not a great experience at all.
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post #40 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:22pm
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Originally Posted by why View Post
I don't see what's so complicated about most of these recipes. Three kinds of meat ground at home is how I make meatloaf and meatballs as a standard. When people serve a hunk of ground beef in that thick supermarket grind it just feels wrong. It tastes like a mediocre burger with no bun (which, for the most part, it pretty much is).

While some of the Keller recipes are indeed complicated or at least exacting, the idea of multiple meats in a meatloaf is neither. Indeed, the classic meatloaf in the ever-fundamental Joy of Cooking used two kinds of beef...and -- like Why -- have been using three for years (I think I use an old Bert Greene recipe, but I simply can't recall...but there are many others outh there including James Beard classic meatloaf). That said, Keller has made a remarkable contribution to our culinary life and thinking. His techniques and recipes are not for everyone...and certainly not for the casual home cook who's looking for quick and easy. But his books make great reading and can stimulate great thinking.
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post #41 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:26pm
Thread Starter 
Meatloaf is traditionally a mix of ground pork, veal and beef. I have always made it that way and was taught to by cooks who were far from haute.

My grandmother even ground her own beef, though not all the time.

But the idea that for a burger one is supposed to A) get three different cuts of beef and B) grind it yourself (also, I forgot to mention, twice, in two different sizes) -- and this is not complex for a "simple" burger recipe ... well, you all are accustomed to far more complex cooking than I am.

But then this is Style Forum, where fallback jobs start at $250K and "simple" burgers begin with killing your own cow (three different breeds).
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post #42 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
Meatloaf is traditionally a mix of ground pork, veal and beef. I have always made it that way and was taught to by cooks who were far from haute.

My grandmother even ground her own beef, though not all the time.

But the idea that for a burger one is supposed to A) get three different cuts of beef and B) grind it yourself (also, I forgot to mention, twice, in two different sizes) -- and this is not complex for a "simple" burger recipe ... well, you all are accustomed to far more complex cooking than I am.

I see what you mean by 'complex', but it doesn't add much extra prep time. Changing the grind size takes less than a minute. I'd also say it's probably pointless unless the size difference is pretty large.
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post #43 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:46pm
Perhaps, Manton. But what if instead of calling it a simple burger, it had a wonderful French name...evoking some exotic pate'. What would you think then? Would your expectations be different?

Of course, it's always a trade off as to how much certain refinements add to a dish. And whether one-- or one's guests can actually tell the difference. I don't believe Keller adds these details/ingredients/techniques just to show off or separate himself from the pack. I believe he tastes the differences and -- ever striving for that impossible to reach perfection -- believes it worthwhile. Isn't fabulous there are people in the world who do think like that?
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post #44 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:49pm
Thread Starter 
Who are you arguing with?

Note that all I have said in this thread is that I find Keller funny, in that he defines "simple" very loosely.
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post #45 of 169
1/1/10 at 10:56pm
Sorry. I took your comments a bit differently. I do apologize for my error.

Of course, we all see the world differently. I am reminded of my high school calculus teacher who thought some of the most challenging of problems to be "intuitvely obvious to even a casual oberver." The only thing simple about these exercises was me!
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