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What is worse in Europe - Page 11

post #151 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoopee
Some nebulous thoughts before I rush out tonight:

Certain native Taiwanese do consider themselves different from Mainland Chinese people, even those that setlled on the island over fifty years ago. There is a clear divide between the two groups in Taiwan, which makes it impossible to group "republican" and Taiwan together. It is a touchy and complex subject that rages daily in the streets. My personal feeling, my family being of mainland origins and belonging to the KMT, having grown up largely in Taiwan and maintained residences in various parts of the world where Chinese communities exist, including China, is that while there certainly are differences, the similarities overwhelm them. Different dialects are spoken, different cuisines enjoyed, but these constitute regional subcultures. Urbanites and rural people are different everywhere but would normally not constitute disparate cultures either.

To your original point, I believe, in fact, that Taiwanese people in general are more likely not to claim cultural superiority over the Koreans and Japanese than the Chinese, not the other way around. Partly because some do not feel kinship with the imperial court (on the mainland), though textbooks have and still adopt a Sinocentric view of the world. They are changing towards a more Taiwan-centric stance in some ways. But because of the colonial history of Japan, the country being the first to surge out of the region to be an international power (economically), and its rise of cultural influence (which I think is most important), Taiwanese have undergone a sustained Japanese fever, and recently a Korean fever. This is mostly among the younger generations who do not remember nor care about WWII. Also, Japan has an ongoing conflict with China, too, and as a result, doesn't treat Taiwan poorly these days. And China plays up every risible Japanese incident.

As for Korea, that they have never really gone out of their peninsula (though for a long time they were the dominant sea traders in North Asia) to war and to occupy others, they do not engender the same kind of hate as the Japanese. Not despicable, violent brutes that is. North Korea being a playground of some sorts for the Sino-Soviet drama for a long time, adn being Communists, of course, they don't figure into the CPC's and people's despised races. I do not think that feelings towards Korea and the people tend towards the similar kind of hate, but they are surely not well liked. I would say that among people I've met and know, there is more uniform displeasure with them than with the Japanese, who provoke a wide range of emotional responses, trending positive. THe main points of contention with the Koreans are their insularity, arrogance, and nationalism, all of which are interrelated. I think that combination doesn't win many friends anywhere. EG I suppose the USA doesn't really have the first or third, though it could be argued otherwise, but even the perception of the second has caused a great deal of problems.

The relationship between China, Korea, and Japan is quite interestnig. For quite some time, much between Japan and China went through Korea.

Also, you are somewhat right abuot the US-KMT-CPC dynamic. Well before 1971, when the PRC took the ROC's seat in the UN, the ruling party in Taiwan was dissuaded from launching a strike to reclaim the mainland by various nations which wanted to avoid a hot war. This wasn't support for the PRC, but a pragmatic stance - te mindset continued and still does. Support for Taiwan has manifested itself in many other ways, but no one wants a destabilising situation to erupt in the Taiwan strait.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm a European, and was never formaly taught all this, just picked it up through reading so its much apriciated.
post #152 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Wang
I am curious about this. Canadians do not have as much exposure to blacks and Hispanics.

Well, there was never a history of slavery, and African immigrants form a significantly larger fraction of total number of blacks in Canada, so the dynamics are considerably different than those of the States. In my high school, there was a total of one hispanic, a girl I actually dated briefly. There were only a handful of Asians then, so we were the odd odd couple There is, on the other hand, a lot of resentment against Quebecois, who are often perceived, especially in the west, as having disproportionate political power and being whiny in general. Of course, the resentment runs both ways. Quebecois license plates read "Je me souviens", referring to the conquest of Quebec by the British. And there is a lot of resentment from Quebecois against "Allophones", immigrants whose native languages are neither French nor English. In fact, after losing one referendum narrowly, in a moment of candor, the leader of the Partie Quebecois blamed the loss on "Money and the ethnic vote", which expressed the usually unstated resentment of many French Quebecois over their long time oppression by the English speaking "ruling" class and als that against the "ethnic" immigrants, who usually identify themselves as Canadian, not Quebecois. Like I said, a different set of pressures.
post #153 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SD

When my vietnamese girlfriend was in Paris, they wouldn't let her in quite a few places, they just said "No Japanese!"

Was it at places like Louis Vuitton? One of my best friends in Paris is Vietnamese-born, now a French citizen, and I used to hang out with him often while at the university. I never felt any kind of racism or antagonism from others towards him. I would really like to hear about your girlfriend's circumstances.

Was watching a documentary about Josephine Baker the other night. She had a rude awakening when she came back to the US after years in France and attempted to use the hotel front entrance.
post #154 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
Quebecois license plates read "Je me souviens", referring to the conquest of Quebec by the British. And there is a lot of resentment from Quebecois against "Allophones", immigrants whose native languages are neither French nor English. In fact, after losing one referendum narrowly, in a moment of candor, the leader of the Partie Quebecois blamed the loss on "Money and the ethnic vote", which expressed the usually unstated resentment of many French Quebecois over their long time oppression by the English speaking "ruling" class and als that against the "ethnic" immigrants, who usually identify themselves as Canadian, not Quebecois. Like I said, a different set of pressures.

About la devise, I believe it refers more, at least originally, to the history of Québec as a whole, given Taché's use. It may have been "récupérée" by various groups, though, I grant you that. When I see it, given what little I know of Québec's history, I tend to continue: I remember the hardship.

"Money" also refers to wealthier French-speaking Québécois, generally older, who typically are anti-independence.
post #155 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
Actually, I would say that Canada is probably better, although it's difficult to compare because the States and Canada have significantly different pressures from immigration and Canada has less historical baggage than do the States.

I think that you would be correct except for the fact that the French-Canadians seem to hate everybody and would like to have their own country.

Also, there are major immigration problems in BC. Overall, I would say you are correct. Certainly the US and Canada are among the best.
post #156 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt
I think that you would be correct except for the fact that the French-Canadians seem to hate everybody and would like to have their own country.

Also, there are major immigration problems in BC. Overall, I would say you are correct. Certainly the US and Canada are among the best.

Let's not underestimate the rule of PC talk.

As to the French Canadians, I absolutely disagree.
post #157 of 173
I work with the Taiwanese very closely, and if I hire a mainland Chinese to help them while in the US, I always get complaints afterwards. I still persist and hire whoever will perform best, despite heavy pressure.
post #158 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabienne
Let's not underestimate the rule of PC talk.

As to the French Canadians, I absolutely disagree.

I do not understand...

I apologize if I offended you.
post #159 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabienne
Was it at places like Louis Vuitton?

If anyone is turning away Japanese from Louis Vuitton, they are alienating their primary market.

When I was teaching Japanese stewardesses, I used to hear tales about how the French would gather to laugh at the hoards of Japanese girls who would troup onto the tour bus with their identical LV handbags.
post #160 of 173
in regard to original topic, I'd say "service" is worse in europe.

!luc
post #161 of 173
Far be it for me to bash Europe as I live there, and love much of it, but let´s face it: there are many things that are worse on this side of the pond (IMHO).

- The customer usually can´t shop on Sunday. One can´t blame Wal Mart for this; it existed well before. As Sunday is when most people shop, they all run around on Saturday to do these errands.

- Human diversity: Despite immigration and the fuss it is causing, most European workplaces are relatively homogeous. When I worked at a (Republican dominated) company in the US, my professional colleagues were Asian, Afro-American, and European. In my comparable job in Europe, all are nationals, except for the Latin American mail dept.

- Environmental diversity: I´ve seen and admire both Mallorcan calas and the Swiss alps. But, the US has California, Hawai, Alaska, New Mexico, Montana all under one (national) roof.

- Food: I´m a great admirer of, say, jamon de bellota, but some foods such as Oregon cherries, potatos (Dan Quayle!), Maryland blue crabs, etc. are simply better in the US.

- Political debate: Yes, G.W. Bush is no Abe Lincoln, but the political debate in Europe can be even worse. Witness Le Pen or the recent debate in Spain as to how many nations are within the nation. Or the quality of democracy under Berlusconi (hmm, anyone want to argue there was an independent press?).

- Political hypocrisy: I´m hardly one to defend GWB over Kyoto, but at least his stand is consistent. Is it really better to sit at a bar in Spain criticizing him, before smoking another cigarette (class A pollute for your brethern) and getting in one´s SUV (Spain´s emissions are 40% over the Kyoto limit).

- Entrepreneurial capitalism: Yes, I know this means the savage wild west, but it has created many things that Europeans also enjoy (affordable cotton clothing, low cost airlines, telephone, the internet, incandescent lighting, generic medicines, etc.). When my successfull, entrepreneurial European colleagues go to a European headhunter, they´re told they´re unsuitable. When they go to a U.S. headhunter, they´re told they have a valuable skill.
post #162 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabienne
Let's not underestimate the rule of PC talk.

As to the French Canadians, I absolutely disagree.

As an Asian-Canadian with a distinctly Anglophone accent when I speak French, I have met with more than my fair share of hostility in Quebec, especially in rural Quebec and in Quebec City. Montreal is a whole different story, of course.

As for PC talk, I've usually dated Caucasians, and am married to one, and nowhere in the US have I gotten more stares and muttered comments than I have in Europe, especially in the Latin countries, including in France.
post #163 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
As an Asian-Canadian with a distinctly Anglophone accent when I speak French, I have met with more than my fair share of hostility in Quebec, especially in rural Quebec and in Quebec City. Montreal is a whole different story, of course.

As for PC talk, I've usually dated Caucasians, and am married to one, and nowhere in the US have I gotten more stares and muttered comments than I have in Europe, especially in the Latin countries, including in France.

I think the hatred existing between some French-speaking and some English-speaking Canadians is mutual and probably equal. As a French speaker from France, I've been attacked by Canadian anglophones who thought I was French-Canadian, and I found I had to explain over and over where I was from, which usually calms people down. I once asked a French-speaking Canadian who she felt she had more in common with, an English-speaking Canadian, or a French national, and she answered: a French national, of course.

I can't dispute your own experience (but are you sure it wasn't because of the way you were dressed... ). People mutter and whisper when I pass by too, sometimes (probably because I'm often in the company of ... an American!)
post #164 of 173
I've always thought Europe to be quite cordial, and France seems to have a precedent of tolerance for blacks, and such. Witness Josephine Baker, Tina Turner, Nina Simone, Marian Anderson, et al. They all chose to be expatriates on account of the racism they encountered in America. Even Vienna, that odd bastion of traditional intolerance, was quite pleasant. As well, even in China now, if you have some sort of Caucasian significant other, people stare and gossip.
post #165 of 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
As an Asian-Canadian
do you say "whats it all aboot?"
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