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Random health and exercise thoughts - Page 3234

post #48496 of 57262
I wish I still had DOMS bored.gif
post #48497 of 57262
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultaVexillum View Post
 

 

C'mon man, did you read anything I wrote past the word DOMS?

EDIT: your last sentence answers my own question.

 

I did. However I see no formula connecting increased muscle growth to DOMS. 

 

The mind muscle connection thing to me has always made sense because feeling the contraction seems to correlate to being able to more actively recruit muscles. I'm not sure if changing rep schemes always connects to DOMS though.


Mixing things up and DOMS is related how?

post #48498 of 57262

I haven't had DOMS in my chest for like half a year and my bench has been increasing faster than ever.

Also, my legs grew the most when I was training them 5x a week. 

Another example is that my traps grew most when I started to do deadlifts 3x a week and switched to high bar from low bar so I did high bar squats 3x a week. No direct trap isolation work like shrugs at all.

 

I know what the hypertrophy scientists says, but some of that stuff hasn't given me the best results in terms of hypertrophy.

post #48499 of 57262
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuji View Post

Yeah I really wish I was like 5'6" then all my dreams would come true.

:lol:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

 

Haha yeah, I weigh more than @GraphicNovelty, but I look like a twig next to him.

 

The quest for 16 inch gunz continues. I think I just hit/passed 15 for this go-around. Hoping to still make 16 by the new year.


Question for you guys though... Is frequency better than a dedicated day? I.e. am I better off dedicating a day to arms and doing 2-3 exercises for bis/tris or better off doing one 5x10 superset for both 3-4 times a week? Potentially two exercises on some days. 

Assuming RHET measures arms when flexed, when I was doing BB stuff my arms were about 18.5 for the right and 18 for the left. I would do super sets with 2 to 3 exercises about 6 to 20 reps and train about 3 to 4 times a week doing arm work. Now that I've stopped doing arms, they've gone down to 16.25 for the right and 16 for the left. Now my clothes fit better on me. I just want thick legs, lower back, and blocky abs for power when I need to idk push my car out of a ditch or something. 

post #48500 of 57262
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

 

I did. However I see no formula connecting increased muscle growth to DOMS. 

 

I think you're missing my overall point - Dismissing DOMS entirely is just as stupid as basing "success" entirely off DOMS. DOMS is physical evidence that the muscle you targeted has been put under sufficient stress. That is NOT to say that in order to grow you need DOMS, just saying that it clearly means something. I do NOT base the success of my training off how sore i get, but I base the movements I choose off the best MMC/Feel, and in turn those movements just so happen to be the ones that create the biggest DOMS. However, after I've I'm a few sessions into a routine obv that DOMS gets decreasingly severe until it basically disappears (adapation), I do NOT then abandon that movement on the basis that "no DOMS = no progress" and go for something that gets DOMS, that is pretty much what programs like P90X aim for. They try to make you sore all the time to make you feel like it's working because for untrained people and people with little exercise experience they will usually associate soreness with success since progression doesn't happen overnight - they won't suddenly put 2" in their biceps, but if their biceps feel trashed then they will think it's working.

I'm just saying I've NEVER gotten sore or a good pump from BB Bench so I rarely use it.

 

The mind muscle connection thing to me has always made sense because feeling the contraction seems to correlate to being able to more actively recruit muscles. I'm not sure if changing rep schemes always connects to DOMS though.

 

Yes, MMC. The better your MMC for a given exercise, the better you can target that muscle, the better the pump will be, the worse the DOMS will be (all things being equal, remembering everything else I've said about diminishing DOMS as you adapt and not chasing DOMS exclusively bah blah)


Mixing things up and DOMS is related how?

 

Adaption? The first time you squat after a lay off your entire legs will be stupid sore for a week. Same goes for any exercise after a layoff, similarly, if you haven't done CG Bench press for a while and then you add it in, after that first session you'r tri's will be pretty sore. The same thing happens with rep schemes (at least from my experience and pretty much everybody else I've ever talked to who is at least semi serious about training). If I've been squatting for multiple sets of 5 for a while (weeks months whatever) and aren't experiencing any DOMS and then suddenly go and squat for a few sets of 20 I will be sore as fuck. I've been doing OH press for sets of 15 and then suddenly add a bunch of weight and do a few sets of 5 the same thing will happen.

post #48501 of 57262
Quote:
Originally Posted by conceptionist View Post
 

I haven't had DOMS in my chest for like half a year and my bench has been increasing faster than ever.

Also, my legs grew the most when I was training them 5x a week. 

 

I am still completely confused how this has been the take away from anything i've said. I'm not saying you won't grow or progress if you don't have DOMS. I also agree frequency is a huge factor in growth.

 

Another example is that my traps grew most when I started to do deadlifts 3x a week and switched to high bar from low bar so I did high bar squats 3x a week. No direct trap isolation work like shrugs at all.

 

I know what the hypertrophy scientists says, but some of that stuff hasn't given me the best results in terms of hypertrophy.

 

Also, aren't you powerlifting? So you are training movement patterns? So when you bench you're trying to increase technique and leverages to move as much weight as possible, not trying to target the chest specifically and make it feel as heavy as possible. So hypertrophy is essentially a by product of working with weights, not your primary goal.

post #48502 of 57262

So basically your point is that DOMS could be related or maybe it couldn't be. I still don't see how this adds anything.

post #48503 of 57262

NO! For fakes sake.

I'm saying your original quote that using soreness as a measure of progress is stupid is as equally fucking stupid.

 

Soreness clearly means something to how successfully you stressed a muscle. That's it. CLEARLY, not maybe. OBVIOUSLY.

post #48504 of 57262

So, DOMS/soreness is one measure of ascertaining whether a muscle has been stressed. However, this can happen to such a rare degree in athletes that, you know... train, that it has limited utility especially when said athletes are progressing in weights/workouts even with the absence of DOMS/soreness. So if measuring outcome=muscle stressed where satisfying condition =DOMS/soreness, then the satisfying condition has limited utility.

 

Got it.

post #48505 of 57262
You have serious comprehension issues man.
post #48506 of 57262

@OccultaVexillum

 

I am aware that my bench press gains are probably most related to technique improvements. I'm almost certain that's the case since my chest hasn't grown more than one inch the last 6 months.

 

However, I said that my legs grew the most when I trained them 5x a week. More than when I trained them for 3x a week with higher volume per session (and almost equal volume over the week as when I did 5x).

 

I agree that DOMS is a excellent measure for how much the muscle has been stressed. I am not convinced that getting DOMS means that it is "sufficiently" stressed. From my personal experience, from stuff I've read, and from studies like the Norwegian Frequency Project (where each session had low volume/stress, but high weekly) I believe you can get "sufficient" stress for hypertrophy without getting DOMS. DOMS might just mean you overworked, but that's just a guess.

post #48507 of 57262
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccultaVexillum View Post

You have serious comprehension issues man.

 

No I don't. I'm stating that using DOMS/Soreness to evaluate workout effectiveness is of extremely limited utility, which makes it barely worth considering. You have said nothing to counter this. 


You're also arguing that DOMS, or lack of it, indicates adaptation. So switching to a new rep scheme/exercise and not having DOMS means that it's worthless because you're already adapted to it?

 

Yes, I realize I'm being difficult, but I'm also being reductive and this doesn't lend itself well to that at all due to its limited utility.

 

If something happens rarely and is used to gauge that a workout or new style was effective, but doesn't happen regularly enough to evaluate things when switching it up, it has incredibly low utility. In more scientific terms, it is highly specific, but has really low sensitivity. I.e. if soreness, then definite workout stress, however lack of soreness doesn't mean anything. 

It's of incredibly limited use.

post #48508 of 57262
Quote:
Originally Posted by conceptionist View Post
 

@OccultaVexillum

 

I am aware that my bench press gains are probably most related to technique improvements. I'm almost certain that's the case since my chest hasn't grown more than one inch the last 6 months.

 

However, I said that my legs grew the most when I trained them 5x a week. More than when I trained them for 3x a week with higher volume per session (and almost equal volume over the week as when I did 5x).

 

I agree that DOMS is a excellent measure for how much the muscle has been stressed. I am not convinced that getting DOMS means that it is "sufficiently" stressed. From my personal experience, from stuff I've read, and from studies like the Norwegian Frequency Project (where each session had low volume/stress, but high weekly) I believe you can get "sufficient" stress for hypertrophy without getting DOMS. DOMS might just mean you overworked, but that's just a guess.

 

Yeah. Everything you said I agree with completely.

Anybody can get sore, it's not the be all end all. But to completely ignore it or write it off completely would be dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

 

No I don't. I'm stating that using DOMS/Soreness to evaluate workout effectiveness is of extremely limited utility, which makes it barely worth considering. You have said nothing to counter this. 


You're also arguing that DOMS, or lack of it, indicates adaptation. So switching to a new rep scheme/exercise and not having DOMS means that it's worthless because you're already adapted to it?

 

Yes, I realize I'm being difficult, but I'm also being reductive and this doesn't lend itself well to that at all due to its limited utility.

 

If you're still unclear on any point I've attempted to make then go back and read my previous posts. Saying anything further isn't going to help since I already attempted to explain it at least 3 times. You're second paragraph is just you misinterpreting things or inferring things that weren't said.

post #48509 of 57262

From my understanding, the purpose of variation in bodybuilding and strength training from a hypertrophy perspective is mostly about avoiding neural adaptions to movements and to not miss certain smaller muscles that might not get targeted with a certain technique/variation of a lift.

post #48510 of 57262

I'm pretty sure the bit I edited before you replied answers your questions exactly. 

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