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post #37081 of 46459
scary what a few days of undereating and no lifting does to gains frown.gif

really rustled over this forearm, too. not lifting for a few days makes it feel better, but after hockey tonight it feels like hell. when i was lifting, it was consistently irritating, but would never get as bad as it feels right now. so its either do nothing for a few weeks and see how it progresses (if at all) or just continue with lifting as usual. i'm tempted to just say fuck it, disregard and continue lifting while getting my coldsnap on but i dont want to mess around with potential elbow issues.
post #37082 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeKay View Post

Pretty sure Mark is completely naked in that last bulk progress pic lol

It wouldn't be the first time he did that.

Also, bb.com BF sale just went up. Seems kind of shitty unless I'm missing something...
post #37083 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by conceptionist View Post

Mark, there's a big risk you'll have to do the bulk and cutting cycle again.

With longer and more aggressive cuts, there's a bigger risk of losing muscle. You may also lose muscle if you can't maintain your strength. Squats and deads are a lot harder when your waist is smaller. And yeah, I think you're around that point of diminshing returns for bulking.

When you decide to cut, just don't jump straight into a big deficit. Gradually decrease cals and incorporate refeeds when you're starting to lean out. You may wanna take a look at Carb Nite, Leangains or something like that.

Going to start cutting after New Years.

I am going to do leangains.

You have experience with this, so how does this sound to you.

Fasted workout in the morning,

consume all calories between 12-8, probably just do two meals.

high protein, moderate fat and relatively low carb

going to start with 2300 calories on workout days and see where that takes me, 1800 on rest days.

sundays do a carb reload

aiming for about a pound of loss a week.
post #37084 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeKay View Post

Pretty sure Mark is completely naked in that last bulk progress pic lol

How else am I going to be able to tell if my dick got any bigger on the bulk?

:|
post #37085 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkI View Post


Going to start cutting after New Years.

I am going to do leangains.

You have experience with this, so how does this sound to you.

Fasted workout in the morning,

consume all calories between 12-8, probably just do two meals.

high protein, moderate fat and relatively low carb

going to start with 2300 calories on workout days and see where that takes me, 1800 on rest days.

sundays do a carb reload

aiming for about a pound of loss a week.

Long post incoming:

Long post (Click to show)

That sounds like a pretty good plan.

 

- Fasted workouts in the morning burns more fat but may be worse for performance, depending on if you're used to lifting in the morning or not. Take 10g og BCAA 15 mins before or sip on it during the workout if you're gonna train fasted. An alternative to training fasted is to train on a "protein and fat fast", which is essentially what Carb Backloading is. If you keep carbs below 20g during the start of the day and only eat protein and fat, you're body pretty much operates like it was fasting, burning fat for energy instead of carbs. If you're gonna do this protocol, eat a small fat and protein meal to as a pre workout meal and to break your fast and then lift 1-2 hours later, optimally around 4-6 o clock. Carbs and low fat in the evening with the remaining protein.

 

- two or three meals is good for cutting if you have a big appetite. I would eat the majority of the carbs and low fat in the first meal post workout, and then less carbs and a bit more fat at the end of the eating window. I did high protein during my cut, almost BW x 1.5. It provides the best muscle retention and satiety. That may be too much protein to get in just two meals. If so, you could eat three meals a day with the last one being just protein and fats.

 

If you're gonna do the Leangains approach with 16 / 8 hours fasting / eating, its important that you get slow absorbing protein in the last meal of the day before fasting so you have amino acids in your body until you start eating the next day. Casein cottage cheese or if you wanna have animal protein you should eat beef/eggs with fibrous green veggies to slow the digestion. I always ate a big bowl of casein and cottage cheese with berries like a desert. 

 

On the refeed day, keep protein at BW or 0.8 in grams and keep fat as low as you absolutely can. Add carbs so you hit maintenance calories or slightly below.

 

As you get leaner, you can introduce more carbs. You might wanna try the original Leangains protocol which has you carb cycling for workout / rest days. Keep protein at BW x 1.3-1.5 all days. Very low fat, high carbs (although not as high as a typical refeed day) around maintenance on workout days and low carb, moderate fats on rest days with a 25-30% calorie deficit. This Leangains protocol is advised for guys that are around 13 % bf, so you could try when you reach that point. The increased carbs would most likely improve your lifts.

 

- I'd say thats way too low calories for your weight and your current intake. Your lifts are gonna go straight down and when you have to decrease calories further due to slower rate of fat loss (everyone gets there eventually), you end up with stupidly low calories which might even hurt your metabolism and hormones.

 

Get a good estimation of your maintenance calories and take away 3500 calories. If you're gonna calorie cycle, you have to take into account how many days a week you train and adjust the cycling thereafter. 

 

Start by doing maintenance on workout days and a moderate deficit on rest day. Do that for a week and then decrease with 200-300 cals for every day, keep it there a week and continue in this fashion until you hit a point where you lose about 1-1.5 pounds a week.

 

An example: At around 200 pounds, you're maintenance could be around 3000 calories. If so, you could theoretically do 2800 calories on workout days and 2100 on rest days if you lift 4x a week . That gets you a 3500 calorie deficit (200*4+900*3=3500).

 

To give you an idea, my macros by the end of the cut were (at 6'3, 175lbs, 2800 calories for maintenance):

 

3x a week, workout days: 375 carbs, 240 protein, 25 fat = 2650 calories

4x a week, rest days: 50 carbs, 270 protein, 80 fat = 2000 calories

 

I never dropped carbs more than this and it got me well below sub 10 % bf.

Now, I certainly didn't cut the fastest way. I lost about 1 pound a week in the beginning from 15% to 10% bf, but then things started to go really slow. It looked like a barely lost any fat for a month. I still advise you not to rush it and decrease calories more since the risk of losing muscle is too high at that point. Simply stick with the deficit you have at that point (which will most likely already be very big) and increase low intensity cardio. There's absolutely no need to rush a cut if you're not a bodybuilder going on stage and it will just hurt your progress. The fat loss at end of my cut seemed very slow, but then all of a sudden I reached the point I wanted.


Edited by conceptionist - 11/29/13 at 1:51am
post #37086 of 46459
Markl: you were looking pretty good in 2nd pic. Dont gain anymore weight
If for no other reason than you risk having loose skin after you cut, which looks shit
Agree with conceptionist, dont cut too hard early on. Ease in to it.

VLSI: how can anyone who looks so shit be so arrogant lmao
post #37087 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarude View Post

scary what a few days of undereating and no lifting does to gains frown.gif

really rustled over this forearm, too. not lifting for a few days makes it feel better, but after hockey tonight it feels like hell. when i was lifting, it was consistently irritating, but would never get as bad as it feels right now. so its either do nothing for a few weeks and see how it progresses (if at all) or just continue with lifting as usual. i'm tempted to just say fuck it, disregard and continue lifting while getting my coldsnap on but i dont want to mess around with potential elbow issues.

What happened to the forearm? Squattin every day put too much torque on your elbow and forearm?
post #37088 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeen7908 View Post

VLSI: how can anyone who looks so shit be so arrogant lmao

How you see me? Not sure why you think I'm arrogant. You're just an asshole.
post #37089 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by conceptionist View Post

Long post incoming: Long post (Click to show)
That sounds like a pretty good plan.

- Fasted workouts in the morning burns more fat but may be worse for performance, depending on if you're used to lifting in the morning or not. Take 10g og BCAA 15 mins before or sip on it during the workout if you're gonna train fasted. An alternative to training fasted is to train on a "protein and fat fast", which is essentially what Carb Backloading is. If you keep carbs below 20g during the start of the day and only eat protein and fat, you're body pretty much operates like it was fasting, burning fat for energy instead of carbs. If you're gonna do this protocol, eat a small fat and protein meal to as a pre workout meal and to break your fast and then lift 1-2 hours later, optimally around 4-6 o clock. Carbs and low fat in the evening with the remaining protein.

- two or three meals is good for cutting if you have a big appetite. I would eat the majority of the carbs and low fat in the first meal post workout, and then less carbs and a bit more fat at the end of the eating window. I did high protein during my cut, almost BW x 1.5. It provides the best muscle retention and satiety. That may be too much protein to get in just two meals. If so, you could eat three meals a day with the last one being just protein and fats.

If you're gonna do the Leangains approach with 16 / 8 hours fasting / eating, its important that you get slow absorbing protein in the last meal of the day before fasting so you have amino acids in your body until you start eating the next day. Casein cottage cheese or if you wanna have animal protein you should eat beef/eggs with fibrous green veggies to slow the digestion. I always ate a big bowl of casein and cottage cheese with berries like a desert. 

On the refeed day, keep protein at BW or 0.8 in grams and keep fat as low as you absolutely can. Add carbs so you hit maintenance calories or slightly below.

As you get leaner, you can introduce more carbs. You might wanna try the original Leangains protocol which has you carb cycling for workout / rest days. Keep protein at BW x 1.3-1.5 all days. Very low fat, high carbs (although not as high as a typical refeed day) around maintenance on workout days and low carb, moderate fats on rest days with a 25-30% calorie deficit. This Leangains protocol is advised for guys that are around 13 % bf, so you could try when you reach that point. The increased carbs would most likely improve your lifts.

- I'd say thats way too low calories for your weight and your current intake. Your lifts are gonna go straight down and when you have to decrease calories further due to slower rate of fat loss (everyone gets there eventually), you end up with stupidly low calories which might even hurt your metabolism and hormones.

Get a good estimation of your maintenance calories and take away 3500 calories. If you're gonna calorie cycle, you have to take into account how many days a week you train and adjust the cycling thereafter. 

Start by doing maintenance on workout days and a moderate deficit on rest day. Do that for a week and then decrease with 200-300 cals for every day, keep it there a week and continue in this fashion until you hit a point where you lose about 1-1.5 pounds a week.

An example: At around 200 pounds, you're maintenance could be around 3000 calories. If so, you could theoretically do 2800 calories on workout days and 2100 on rest days if you lift 4x a week . That gets you a 3500 calorie deficit (200*4+900*3=3500).

To give you an idea, my macros by the end of the cut were (at 6'3, 175lbs, 2800 calories for maintenance):

3x a week, workout days: 375 carbs, 240 protein, 25 fat = 2650 calories
4x a week, rest days: 50 carbs, 270 protein, 80 fat = 2000 calories

I never dropped carbs more than this and it got me well below sub 10 % bf.
Now, I certainly didn't cut the fastest way. I lost about 1 pound a week in the beginning from 15% to 10% bf, but then things started to go really slow. It looked like a barely lost any fat for a month. I still advise you not to rush it and decrease calories more since the risk of losing muscle is too high at that point. Simply stick with the deficit you have at that point (which will most likely already be very big) and increase low intensity cardio. There's absolutely no need to rush a cut if you're not a bodybuilder going on stage and it will just hurt your progress. The fat loss at end of my cut seemed very slow, but then all of a sudden I reached the point I wanted.

Thanks for the reply.

I like the idea of carb back loading, but it does not really fit with my schedule. I might try to make it work though... I also wake up pretty early everyday, so that is why morning workouts work for me, would not be ideal to wake up, wake until my eating windows opens, eat, then wait another two hours till I hit the gym.

I do have BCAA's on hand for the fasted workouts.

High protein is pretty much going to be my focus, aiming for 1.5 BW like yourself.

I will probably try different methods such as introducing more carbs the leaner I get. I'm pretty sure that starting out from the ~18% BF I am now the first couple of weeks the weight will come off with relative ease.

Getting a good estimation of maintenance is probably the most difficult thing without a bodybugg of some sort. I do believe that my maintenance is somewhere around 3,000 - 3,200 but I am not positive, and not really sure how to hone in on a precise figure. But you're right about slowly dialing it down and not just jumping in.

Also what did you do for food throughout? I'm trying to change my mindset about food with the cut, and just telling myself it's means to an end and not really caring about taste until I get this done.

Figure i'm going to get all my carbs from things like sweet potatoes, brown rice, protein will be chicken breasts and ground beef, fats will come from the butter and oils things are cooked in. No liquids other than black coffee, tea and water.

What database did you use to find macro levels in foods? Say I have a sweet potato, I weigh it, but where did you the find the nutritional data on it?

Also, I work out M-F now, rest on the weekends. I'm thinking on a cut my energy and recovery levels will drop significantly, probably smarter to move down to 3 or even 4x a week?

Lastly, did you incorporate any cardio whatsoever? My gym has a pool, so I think I might take advantage of that.

Once again thanks for taking the time.
post #37090 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkI View Post


Thanks for the reply.

I like the idea of carb back loading, but it does not really fit with my schedule. I might try to make it work though... I also wake up pretty early everyday, so that is why morning workouts work for me, would not be ideal to wake up, wake until my eating windows opens, eat, then wait another two hours till I hit the gym.

I do have BCAA's on hand for the fasted workouts.

High protein is pretty much going to be my focus, aiming for 1.5 BW like yourself.

I will probably try different methods such as introducing more carbs the leaner I get. I'm pretty sure that starting out from the ~18% BF I am now the first couple of weeks the weight will come off with relative ease.

Getting a good estimation of maintenance is probably the most difficult thing without a bodybugg of some sort. I do believe that my maintenance is somewhere around 3,000 - 3,200 but I am not positive, and not really sure how to hone in on a precise figure. But you're right about slowly dialing it down and not just jumping in.

Also what did you do for food throughout? I'm trying to change my mindset about food with the cut, and just telling myself it's means to an end and not really caring about taste until I get this done.

Figure i'm going to get all my carbs from things like sweet potatoes, brown rice, protein will be chicken breasts and ground beef, fats will come from the butter and oils things are cooked in. No liquids other than black coffee, tea and water.

What database did you use to find macro levels in foods? Say I have a sweet potato, I weigh it, but where did you the find the nutritional data on it?

Also, I work out M-F now, rest on the weekends. I'm thinking on a cut my energy and recovery levels will drop significantly, probably smarter to move down to 3 or even 4x a week?

Lastly, did you incorporate any cardio whatsoever? My gym has a pool, so I think I might take advantage of that.

Once again thanks for taking the time.

 

No problems. I love to give advice and help guys if they listen and actually take the effort to put it into practice.

 

I used a bodybugg during my cut, but it actually just came out to the exact same maintenance as I was estimating before hand. For me, that was BW x 15 and an additional 300-400 calories on workout days. Go for the higher if you're doing high volume. Since you weigh a bit more than I did, I think 3000 calories is a good starting point.

 

I've never had a problem with food. I don't really get what you mean, but for instance, I've never liked fast food or unhealthy stuff. Pretty much never crave it. I naturally eat very "clean" all the time. One thing though, I've noticed that Leangains and Carb backladong can have you develop a weird relationship with food. I'm thinking about the aspect of cycling certain macros and fasting / eating. The huge portion sizes can also lead to gorging if you don't have good self control.

 

As for what I ate, it was pretty much whatever combination of the usual "clean" foods that I wanted that day. I made sure to get some kind of treat every day, but still a good one that fit my macros. For me that was typically cottage cheese with berries or some kind of protein ice cream made out of casein powder or something similar. I always had it as the last meal of the day so I had something to look forward to.

 

My main carb sources were potatoes (regular and sweet), white rice, oatmeal, low fat ice cream / sorbet and low fat cereals. Potatoes provides the best satiety by far, while cereals are the worst.

 

Start by doing the same workout split as you've used so far. If you can still progress, that's great. Only change it up once you start to stall. Then I would reduce the volume, not the frequency or intensity.

 

I did no cardio whatsoever during my cut, apart from walking 45 mins to 2 hours around the city on my off days. I also took the bike everywhere I went instead of the bus, and so on. Tried to stay moderately active throughout the days, but no typical cardio in the gym or anything like that.

 

Looking back, I will do more cardio next time I cut. At one point my energy levels were so from the low calories that I had a hard time concentrating and performing in school. Then I think it's better to either take a diet brake for a week or be more active.

 

I can't say what type of cardio is the best, but I like tempo work over HIIT. Read these:

http://jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/04/09/conditioning-youre-doing-it-wrong/

http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/04/12/conditioning-how-to-do-it-right/

post #37091 of 46459
Thread Starter 
sorry this is the best I can do lol

g3IVLzV.jpg

should have asked my gf to help me when she was here. the left side looks like melting cookie dough because I'm taking a picture over my shoulder into a mirror redface.gif
post #37092 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by gort View Post

dat bloat gut.
Why won't you go into more detail or post links?foo.gif
I hate when people do this. Here is a pretty funny link. I can't speak to its veracity though as the dude seems to have it in for Kovacs

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson329.htm#2
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Two: The Kovacs Monster


[ Q ] In our last interview you mentioned certain problems you would encounter as a contest neared and that maintaining your massive size could sometimes be a problem. Just how difficult is it to maintain such massive size and what are some of the problems that might be experienced by competitors as large as you?

I would like to give an example of a man who was one of the largest pros to have ever competed: Greg Kovacs. I knew Greg, who was so big that he could hardly function.

Once I flew into Knoxville, TN for a seminar and a guest posing. And Kovacs was supposed to be there with me as well. I had to drive in the same car with him and his wife, from the airport to the hotel where we were staying. I put my Walkman on and did not want to socialize artificially with family K. My guest posing went well, but I did not watch K guest pose.

But we had to give a seminar together the very next day. The result was that - without kidding - the seminar in the gym was given by Kim Kovacs and me. Greg just sat on a couch, physically and mentally tired. And as usual he was sweating profusely.

Nasser
+ Click To Enlarge.
Nasser & The Kovacs Monster.

Here is another true story: once Greg was with wife Kim at an Amateur contest in Texas. She was cutting him his steak into little chewable pieces while he was sitting at a table, breathing heavily and sweating. Then Kim fed him with a fork and in her other hand held a mini fan for him because again he was transpiring so tremendously.

Finally he had to go to the bathroom. He went ahead and she followed him into the men's bathroom exactly 10 minutes later. She just walked straight in there. Greg made himself visible by sticking his hand out over the top of the stall, so she knew where to go. Then she helped him clean his rear end as I had also witnessed personally while I was staying at their house in Canada in 1995.

The other nasty story is that once a guy - who I know and who told me about this - went up to see Greg into his Atlanta, GA hotel room to give him some "medical items". At the time Greg was without his wife because they had one of their usual conflicts.

Still, it is very unusual that he had travelled without her, as she normally went with him everywhere. Anyways, the so-called "medicine man" had to use the bathroom but Greg strongly prohibited the guy from going in there.

But the guy went in there nevertheless and there was this awful penetrating odor. He discovered multiple - obviously used - towels covered with long brown skid marks. Kovacs had been using the now stinky towels as a toilet paper replacement because he could not reach his rear end by himself. So he used the towels by holding each end with one hand and rubbing himself/pulling the towels back and forth between his legs.


[ Q ] Moving on now, Greg Kovacs was a massive guy. Some say he was the strongest bodybuilder ever.

To my knowledge the Kovacs' had also "consulted" Craig Titus, Charles Glass, Dave Palumbo, Milos and Chad Nichols and my far acquaintance friend, KP Ourama. Years ago while I was still talking to Kovacs I gave him the opportunity to travel to Finland to give seminars instead of me.

From my point of view there were few financial rewards for doing this. Anyways, this Finnish acquaintance of KP's also tried to help Kovacs find the "secret". But they were not happy with this guy's information either.

Nasser
+ Click To Enlarge.
Nasser With The Kovacs Monster
And The Monster's Father At Kovacs' House.

What people like Kovacs and many, many others do not understand is there is no so-called "drug secret" at all. At some point, sooner or later every bodybuilder (and other athletes in other sports) uses the same drugs. And performance enhancing drugs like steroids can't change Kovacs's disfigured body and cannot make his camel hips disappear, change his DNA or suddenly give him full, round calves, hams, triceps and symmetry.

Intensity in regard to bodybuilding means to Kovacs and many other lost souls more, many more cc's of steroids and other drugs, many more units of Insulin and GH.

They do not consider intensity as far as doing frequent and longer workouts, more sets and reps, more pre-exhaust techniques, the use of different cardio machines like the stair master, the cross trainer, the rowing machine (not solely the stationary bike for 20 minutes/three times a week like Kovacs did).

It was also not possible for Kovacs to do cardio on an empty stomach. And eating less food during his pre contest diet did not seem to be an option for Greg Kovacs either. The additional dependency on ketamine and nubain and on various other painkillers by himself and his wife did not contribute to him becoming a better bodybuilder, but definitely made them eligible for intense and long rehab.

Kovacs, a giant of man at around 400-plus-pounds, bad genetics (no symmetry, no proportion and no shape) and discipline problems with his diet was a hopeless case in the world of bodybuilding. All these claims to be the strongest bodybuilder in the world is just talk.

Kovacs claimed to be able to push six 45-pound plates on each side of bar on the incline bench press. This is true but not with a free barbell. Kovacs was just using the Smith machine for such record claims. And using such a machine to make strength claims is ridiculous. Pushing free weight is much harder.

Kovacs could neither do one single chin up nor do one single dip with his bodyweight. I never saw or heard of Kovacs doing squats either. And if you can't do that, because you are too big and too heavy and uncoordinated, then you cannot stimulate the muscle through its full range of motion. This means that certain parts of the muscle cannot therefore be developed properly. Add a lack of the proper genetics needed and you will get nowhere.

Greg was actually the person who brought "Muscletech", a Canadian nutrition company, which sponsored him for years. But it was also the same company that finally got rid of him. The last time I saw Kovacs was in 2004 backstage at a pro show in Atlanta, GA. He was warming up there.

But he "withdrew" due to injury. This was the official reason given for not competing. Greg looked unhurt to me. But I seriously think that he started feeling sick when he saw the full line-up of competitors. A top 15 spot would have been a dream come true for him. But there was no room for him in the top 15. I think this is the last we saw of the lumberjack.

By the way, Greg's huge multiple lumps on his rear end became more and more visible, because he was "dieting" (coming down in bodyweight) which means he did not eat every 45 minutes like in off season but then just ate every 70 minutes. At this time his mothering wife tried to rub the lumps out, but some of the lumps burst open and pus and blood streamed out.

So Jumbo Palumbo, who was already working as Greg's "nutritionist", was called by Kim in the middle of the night and a couple of hours later Kovacs was on his way to New York City to meet Palumbo who had already arranged and scheduled emergency surgery for the lumberjack. The surgery lasted several hours and Kovacs almost died under the diligent hands of several qualified medical doctors.

I heard that these haematomas were baseball-sized. Shortly after, Kovacs flew back to nearby Toronto, Ontario, where he still tried to get ready for the NOC (Night of Champions). Anyways, the story was that he even had to wear diapers under his tent-sized posing trunks. He was leaking pus all over the stage. And for sure he could barely move because he could barely breathe, weakened through rapid weight loss, the emergency surgery and not eating every 45 minutes.

An interesting thing about Greg: in his free time he likes to sing the "Jefferson" song and watch bodybuilding movies, especially his own one, and he also loves to spend hours and hours in strip clubs. Many of these girls love muscular men/big men. The thing Kovacs enjoys there the most is when he can "eat" and lick the feet of several of these girls at the same time. Often afterwards he will eat steaks without the use of silverware, but with his bare hands. Also he does not wash his hands before he goes from "eating" feet to eating steaks.

Exhibit Two: The Kovacs Monster.

The Kovacs monster is very dubious and monster-like in the gigantic outgrowth of its camel like pelvis, its fridge gut (sounds almost like German "Frisch is gut" = "fresh is good" - but it is de facto the complete opposite here) and with its stilt legs. The tiny dimensions of its lower body limbs suggest it was previously wheelchair bound.

The legs also actually do look just like small rudiments from a species that is trying to abandon legs because it is evolving back into an ocean-dwelling creature where lower extremities are no longer needed. Survival for this "monster" in the bodybuilding world is more than poor.
post #37093 of 46459
Yeah your arms looks better than your back bro
post #37094 of 46459
Yep, arms definitely look thicker and better than your back dude.
post #37095 of 46459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldsnap View Post

What happened to the forearm? Squattin every day put too much torque on your elbow and forearm?

Nope - the forearm pain started after the first day on the program, so I'm 99% sure it was from dumping the bar awkwardly that day so an acute injury rather than chronic.

It progressed to elbow pain as I tried to work in light rowing with straps. Benched/lb squatted 3x week probably kept it in a constant state of non recovery
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