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Random health and exercise thoughts - Page 1190

post #17836 of 49513
ugh, i can't resist the bait... never using equipment ever is silly, and i will tell you why.

let's talk goals and context. think of equipment as tools just as lifts themselves are tools. say your goal was performance-oriented - to deadlift 500lbs in one year. in an extreme example, would you only do max effort singles for an entire year and disregard every other lift to do as assistance work? you'd be selling yourself short by limiting the number of tools you're using, and my argument is that the idea of "tools" is very relative when viewed in the context of someone's goals. for our 500lb deadlift, we would have an assortment of assistance work to help us get there. perhaps we'd be doing high-rep sets of dimel deadlifts to work our lockout - if our grip fatigues before the posterior chain, we'd be selling myself short by not strapping them. even if we're talking about the main lift and not assistance work, your main movement is still a tool and not always the end; its a means to the end of your ultimate goal. they might be one and the same depending on the timeframe, but its not an absolute thing. for example, when starting out our year, strapping our 2x5 deadlifts and training grip separately are a great way to ensure we maximize our performance in both regards. on the other hand, only doing strapped 2x5 deads for a main movement up til the day you're trying to pull 500 for a single without them is a bad idea. my point here is that equipment use is far too contextual for someone to come out and say "i dont use any equipment ever" unless that lifter is satisfied with selling themselves short. sorry to use you as an example TK, but you clearly have performance goals. "punishing yourself" by restricting the tools you have at your disposal isn't acting in line with what you want to achieve.

as far as non-performance goals or not caring how much weight is on the bar, there are a few problems with that. one, your goals are poorly defined and hence your training is at best directionless. two, as soon as you try try to clearly define a goal, performance invariably becomes involved and we come back to the nonsensical idea of arbitrarily deciding what tools you will and will not use based on something as asinine as "well one day i might not have straps so i should never strap up my deads." considering how relative the term "equipment" is, and if you even remotely care about the concept of progress, you are either a) short-sighted or b) okay with selling yourself short by not using equipment.
post #17837 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuji View Post


Everyones gonna squat more in a belt then without a belt. It's not like a belt takes your abs out of the movement either. Doesn't mean you have weak abs, it's just your gonna squat more in a belt, which means you are training your legs harder. I don't have any knee problems, but knee sleeves should lower the chance of them over occuring. I don't see what disservice oly shoes give me, they improve the biomechanics of my squat, why should I not want to improve it.

 

My point is this: I think you are measuring improvement the wrong way. Improvement is more than just being able to squat heavier weights. All of these tools are ways to minimize the negative effects of some weakness. I'm not saying you have particularly weak abs, or wobly knees, or bad biomechanics. I'm saying that by using these tools, you avoid attacking the weaknesses head on. As an amateur, there's no payoff for the marginal load increase these tools give you. As such, in the absence of specific injury, you should be looking to attack weakness directly. If your core is keeping you from squatting more, a belt helps work AROUND that. Instead, keep squatting what you can and give your core a chance to get stronger without the assistance of the belt. In the long run, you'll see way more improvement this way, however you measure it.

post #17838 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarude View Post

ugh, i can't resist the bait... never using equipment ever is silly, and i will tell you why.

 

I agree that never using equipment is silly. All I really meant to say is that ALWAYS using equipment is equally silly.

post #17839 of 49513
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

I agree that never using equipment is silly. All I really meant to say is that ALWAYS using equipment is equally silly.

cool, i was more directed at people who make blanket statements on the topic considering how relevant "equipment" is. "i dont want to rely on equipment" is stupid, since if you dont want to rely on equipment you should stop lifting altogether because one day you might not have access to weights. if you dont want to rely on equipment you should only back squat what you can clean + press off the floor since you might not have a squat rack tomorrow. etc. i really have no problem with people not using straps/belt/what have you as long as they understand they are selling their progress short
post #17840 of 49513
I understand where your coming from with the belt, but not the oly shoes or knee sleeves. The olympic shoe is just a better shoe to squat in for my stance, I'm not correcting a weakness with it, it's just a better shoe to squat in. The same way converse are better then running shoes, im not trying to counter a muscle imbalance by wearing them, they just make the movement better. You think a non competitive olympic lifter shouldn't wear oly shoes? Theres an inherent risk of injuring your knees when your squatting, you're putting them through flexion with a few hundred pounds on them, doesn't matter how healthy they are you are risking injuring them when you squat. Knee sleeves keep my knees warm, I can't squat just as much with them on as I can off because they offer no support, but keep your knees warm makes the movement safer. My core is not holding me back from squatting more, I could get my abs strong as fuck and putting a belt on is still gonna put weight on my squat. By not wearing one im limiting how much stress I can put on my legs. I don't see how im holding back my performance by wearing one. I wear straps when I do kroc rows with really heavy dumbbells, which i'd never be able to hold for 20 reps. Should I limit how much stress I can put on my upper back but dropping the weight and not using them?
post #17841 of 49513
I've never squattted in Chuck Taylors, but I hear they are great for squatting. Weird though that they are almost totally flat and O-lifting shoes have quite a heel - yet the are both considered good for squatting. When I was very young and just getting into lifting, I used to elevate my heels on a piece of wood or a small weight plate to make it easier for me to squat. I assume it was a flexibility issue.
post #17842 of 49513
Oly shoes are more secure, sole is harder, fit is tighter and I find the heel lets me drive my heels into the floor harder.
post #17843 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuji View Post

Oly shoes are more secure, sole is harder, fit is tighter and I find the heel lets me drive my heels into the floor harder.

They work especially well for front squats, IMO.
post #17844 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarude View Post

edit:
cool, i was more directed at people who make blanket statements on the topic considering how relevant "equipment" is. "i dont want to rely on equipment" is stupid, since if you dont want to rely on equipment you should stop lifting altogether because one day you might not have access to weights. if you dont want to rely on equipment you should only back squat what you can clean + press off the floor since you might not have a squat rack tomorrow. etc. i really have no problem with people not using straps/belt/what have you as long as they understand they are selling their progress short

Sure, I think it's a fair argument. I fully realize that by refusing to use equipment, my lifts aren't as high as they could be nor will they progress as fast as they could. I also don't think I've gotten to the point yet where I think equipment is the limiting factor.

In my bench, my limitation is my chest strength. Putting on wrist supports isn't going to make a huge difference there. A shirt would, of course, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
In my squat, my limitation is my glutes. I don't think shoes are going to help much with that, nor would a belt. My core strength is more than enough for how much I'm squatting.
And the same for my deadlift...it's my glutes. I haven't reached the point where I'm at grip failure, so adding straps seems silly to me.

I just want to know that I've reached my body's pure potential before I go assisting it in other ways. Even still, the only time I think it's appropriate to use equipment is if you need it. I understand putting on a belt if you're going for squatting for max triples. I don't understand putting on a belt if you're warming up with a single plate on the bar. I don't even understand using a mixed or hook grip if you're not close to grip failure, let alone straps. I think you're selling yourself short by solely relying on equipment when your body is naturally capable of doing what you want it to.
post #17845 of 49513
I don't wear a belt for all my warm up sets, but when the weight gets reasonably close I put it on. I want my warm up sets to feel the same as my work sets. Squatting with a belt feels significantly different then without one. Knee sleeves are worn for all sets though because they do no harm at all.
Edited by fuji - 6/17/12 at 7:21pm
post #17846 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJTG View Post


Sure, I think it's a fair argument. I fully realize that by refusing to use equipment, my lifts aren't as high as they could be nor will they progress as fast as they could. I also don't think I've gotten to the point yet where I think equipment is the limiting factor.
In my bench, my limitation is my chest strength. Putting on wrist supports isn't going to make a huge difference there. A shirt would, of course, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
In my squat, my limitation is my glutes. I don't think shoes are going to help much with that, nor would a belt. My core strength is more than enough for how much I'm squatting.
And the same for my deadlift...it's my glutes. I haven't reached the point where I'm at grip failure, so adding straps seems silly to me.
I just want to know that I've reached my body's pure potential before I go assisting it in other ways. Even still, the only time I think it's appropriate to use equipment is if you need it. I understand putting on a belt if you're going for squatting for max triples. I don't understand putting on a belt if you're warming up with a single plate on the bar. I don't even understand using a mixed or hook grip if you're not close to grip failure, let alone straps. I think you're selling yourself short by solely relying on equipment when your body is naturally capable of doing what you want it to.

 

I tend to have a similar attitude. I lift barefoot most of the time, and don't really use anything except chalk/tape on my hands sometimes. 

post #17847 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

I tend to have a similar attitude. I lift barefoot most of the time, and don't really use anything except chalk/tape on my hands sometimes. 

Belts and straps allow a person to lift "overload" weights and movemenst. Overloading is a "principle" to gain muscle. There are other principles to gain muscle without overloading and stressing joints and ligaments. Why would a person interested in the type of fashion discussed in these forums need to be over-muscled.
post #17848 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by jarude View Post

ugh, i can't resist the bait... never using equipment ever is silly, and i will tell you why.

lol at your slippery slope hysterics and confused analogies
post #17849 of 49513
Quote:
Originally Posted by TKJTG View Post

Sure, I think it's a fair argument. I fully realize that by refusing to use equipment, my lifts aren't as high as they could be nor will they progress as fast as they could. I also don't think I've gotten to the point yet where I think equipment is the limiting factor.
In my bench, my limitation is my chest strength. Putting on wrist supports isn't going to make a huge difference there. A shirt would, of course, but that's a whole 'nother topic.
In my squat, my limitation is my glutes. I don't think shoes are going to help much with that, nor would a belt. My core strength is more than enough for how much I'm squatting.
And the same for my deadlift...it's my glutes. I haven't reached the point where I'm at grip failure, so adding straps seems silly to me.
I just want to know that I've reached my body's pure potential before I go assisting it in other ways. Even still, the only time I think it's appropriate to use equipment is if you need it. I understand putting on a belt if you're going for squatting for max triples. I don't understand putting on a belt if you're warming up with a single plate on the bar. I don't even understand using a mixed or hook grip if you're not close to grip failure, let alone straps. I think you're selling yourself short by solely relying on equipment when your body is naturally capable of doing what you want it to.

which is cool, i think we're agreeing on pretty much everything lol. contextual movements are contextual, equipment has its place etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by db_ggmm View Post

lol at your slippery slope hysterics and confused analogies

smile.gif

like i said, there's no issue if you're cognizant of the fact that you're selling yourself short on your progress by training within arbitrary constraints. if its your goal to train within said constraints and willfully sacrifice greater progress simply because you want to limit the tools you have at your disposal, then so be it. this isnt even me being sarcastic, either... seriously dude, whatever floats your boat. if your goals involve training in a manner where you aren't going to make maximal progress, that's fine - just make sure that you're okay with it. that was my point, something i fear you missed.

also, stop taking everything so personally? TK was able to make a well-reasoned reply, yet you came out with butthurt derision while responding to the same post. come now, no need to post face-saving one liners
post #17850 of 49513
I'm an OLer, I have OL shoes on everytime I lift


come at me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayland View Post

I've never squattted in Chuck Taylors, but I hear they are great for squatting. Weird though that they are almost totally flat and O-lifting shoes have quite a heel - yet the are both considered good for squatting.

yeah, chucks are the de facto shoe for a low bar, powerlifting-type ass- back squat. OL shoes are the shit for a high bar, vertical back squat as the (small) heel extends your ankles ROM a bit.

also going to have to skip lifting today, am absolutely toast from yesterday.
Edited by Lagrangian - 6/18/12 at 4:11am
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