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Random health and exercise thoughts - Page 928

post #13906 of 42712
Quote:
The statement does hold true all the time as there isn't an example of a lift where fewer reps places more emphasis on endurance than more reps. Prove me wrong with a mind blown, though.

That's not the issue. I was contesting this:
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you really shouldnt be training to failure...basically you're just training muscular endurance over strength and power

Also, something else I noticed here, this argument somehow went from hypertrophy training to rep range. One can still train to failure at 5 reps. In fact, on some of my lifts after I weight up I can only hit 3 or 4 reps before failure so this argument isn't really making much sense at this point.
post #13907 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by db_ggmm View Post

The statement does hold true all the time as there isn't an example of a lift where fewer reps places more emphasis on endurance than more reps. Prove me wrong with a mind blown, though.

That's not what I was saying. "8-12 instead of 5-6 you're training more for endurance over strength and power." That is not true because some guys will benefit from more of a strength/power standing than endurance from 8-12 reps for something like dimel deadlifts which is done explosively and potentially increases your deadlift strength/power. You ask anyone that does dimel deadlifts on a regular basis and they're tell you that 5-6 reps with heavier weight takes much more endurance than 8-12 explosive reps with a lighter weight.

You also have to factor in stuff like time-under-tension (with higher reps to create more time), which a lot of guys like to use to gain strength/power. Usually for guys that have grinding 1rm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

^really? so in your opinion depending on the person 8-12 could produce more strength and power gains than 5-6 and 5-6 produce more endurance gains than 8-12?

Depending on the person AND the lift, yes 8-12 reps could be a way to gain more strength and power than 5-6 reps.

I'll tell you for a fact that every blue moon that I do a squat widowmaker, my squatting power goes through the roof in the following weeks. I did a widowmaker for 315 a couple months back and my squats have just been climbing and climbing since then. PR's for the past 3 weeks too!

One thing a lot of you are not factoring in is the mental fortitude that high rep compound lifts create (mainly the deadlift and squat). Ask any fucking powerlifter and they'll tell you that powerlifting is 75+% mental. And if a 20rep squat with ~70% of your 1rm doesn't build mental fortitude, then I don't know what does.





Not sure about the 5-6 producing more endurance than 8-12. But I wouldn't discount that.
post #13908 of 42712
^i dunno. i dont see why depending on the person 8 to 12 reps actually gives you more strength than 5 to 6. that would just indicate to me that the 5 to 6 reps is not intense enough

but you have more experience than me, so maybe you are right


also we're talking about training everytime to failure not adding a high rep workout every once in awhile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post

That's not the issue. I was contesting this:
Also, something else I noticed here, this argument somehow went from hypertrophy training to rep range. One can still train to failure at 5 reps. In fact, on some of my lifts after I weight up I can only hit 3 or 4 reps before failure so this argument isn't really making much sense at this point.

while you are correct that you can still train to failure at 5 reps you were advocating training to failure on every set instead of having a set rep amount

i took this to mean that you are adding reps as time goes on which trains endurance over strength


you clarified this later to mean that you try to aim for failure within 8 to 12 reps meaning you do increase weights

so then we talked about 8 to 12 reps beings more endurance oriented vs 5 to 6 which is more strength and power oriented and then you wrongly pointed out that it isnt discrete which i never intended to imply (but i can see how i worded it badly)

and then now you're just confusing the two arguments


i still dont think failure should be the criteria of your workout. why not just go by progress ie add a few % to a lift if you were successful beforehand. failure seems like it would invite injury especially at higher weights (and again at lower weights its probably not a big deal)
post #13909 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

^i dunno. i dont see why depending on the person 8 to 12 reps actually gives you more strength than 5 to 6. that would just indicate to me that the 5 to 6 reps is not intense enough
but you have more experience than me, so maybe you are right
also we're talking about training everytime to failure not adding a high rep workout every once in awhile

Just think of it this way.. which is much simpler.. if there were one rep range and way to train for power/strength, don't you think all elite level powerlifters would be training the same way? smile.gif

The most successful powerlifters (and other strength atheletes) are usually the most diversified and open-minded ones.

Trust me, there have been numerous times where I pushed the 5 rep sets too hard week in and week out that I just kept stalling all the time. It's good to switch it up from time to time.
post #13910 of 42712
i agree with you that there is no one rep range for all lifters, but it seems topsy turvy to say that more reps can produce more power and strength than less reps, or less reps can produce more endurance than more reps.

i think there is leeway in work capacity of individuals so that a lifter could see optimal results at higher reps etc, but i dont think switching strength and endurance on the rep continuum works



you ever do bodyweight/gymnastics workouts? i feel like at the weights you're pushing you could hold a planche easy
post #13911 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post

but aren't you guys training to failure anyways?

no. daily max
post #13912 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by db_ggmm View Post

The statement does hold true all the time as there isn't an example of a lift where fewer reps places more emphasis on endurance than more reps. Prove me wrong with a mind blown, though.

Do 2x8 reps to failure with 5 min rest

Compare to 10x5 reps with 30s rest.

But this is a side/nitpicky case and you are correct in general.
post #13913 of 42712
but really that's meaningless without requiring some kind of percentage of % of 1rm. also reps here would make most sense when we talk about total reps

anyways

i'm sorry for derailing the thread from our regularly programmed fist bumping and good job bros
post #13914 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post

Widowmaker is fucking ridiculous on something like squats or deadlifts, but aren't you guys training to failure anyways? I train to failure on almost all lifts I do on every set.
holy fuck kill yourself
post #13915 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by knucks View Post

holy fuck kill yourself

Don't you think this is a little excessive?
post #13916 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kajak View Post

Do 2x8 reps to failure with 5 min rest
Compare to 10x5 reps with 30s rest.
But this is a side/nitpicky case and you are correct in general.

2x8 reps in 5 minutes with my 1rm vs 10x5 in 30 seconds body weight squats. I assume this must be what you are suggesting. To make the example more clear, I would suggest 3x8 reps in 4 minute 30 seconds body weight squats as the "high rep" set and yes, you've broken the example. The example has to assume some additional caveat, such as "in general, when working at or near *capacity*". A handful of body weight squats in 5 minutes are far removed from capacity, which explains why they break the example, however, it is possible that enough body weight squats / minute can fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrchariybrown View Post

I'll tell you for a fact that every blue moon that I do a squat widowmaker, my squatting power goes through the roof in the following weeks. I did a widowmaker for 315 a couple months back and my squats have just been climbing and climbing since then. PR's for the past 3 weeks too!

I definitely agree with a lot of what you've posted in the longer explanation, except I would argue one minor point. You are attributing your performance improvements from the widowmaker to an increase in 1rm capacity, while I would suggest again as I did a few posts ago that the widowmaker primarily trains squatting endurance which greatly assists in removing the glass ceiling from your 3, 5, and 8 rep training which most directly influences your 1rm. I don't know if there is any way to prove the benefit is endurance or strength, but the effect is real. This is generally what I suggested to the "why widowmaker" question.
post #13917 of 42712
http://gawker.com/5894524/its-not-a-competition
Quote:
It does not matter what shape you are in today. It does not matter if you are pathetic fat weakling, or a champion powerlifter. All that matters is that you are slightly better tomorrow.

Nice read.
post #13918 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by db_ggmm View Post

2x8 reps in 5 minutes with my 1rm vs 10x5 in 30 seconds body weight squats. I assume this must be what you are suggesting. To make the example more clear, I would suggest 3x8 reps in 4 minute 30 seconds body weight squats as the "high rep" set and yes, you've broken the example. The example has to assume some additional caveat, such as "in general, when working at or near *capacity*". A handful of body weight squats in 5 minutes are far removed from capacity, which explains why they break the example, however, it is possible that enough body weight squats / minute can fit.
I definitely agree with a lot of what you've posted in the longer explanation, except I would argue one minor point. You are attributing your performance improvements from the widowmaker to an increase in 1rm capacity, while I would suggest again as I did a few posts ago that the widowmaker primarily trains squatting endurance which greatly assists in removing the glass ceiling from your 3, 5, and 8 rep training which most directly influences your 1rm. I don't know if there is any way to prove the benefit is endurance or strength, but the effect is real. This is generally what I suggested to the "why widowmaker" question.

Endurance and strength, in absolute terms, are not so different, and both contribute to the overarching concept of power. Increases in either strength or endurance will increase power, and people often see benefits in one by becoming better at the other.

Power is a function of force, distance, and time; proportional to the first two, inversely-so to the last. Training exclusively in any one of those three may be limiting, while training in all three modalities will provide a well-rounded increase in overall power. Low rep training really focuses on force, while keeping distance and time relatively constant; a widowmaker brings into focus the latter two as well, slightly diminishing the force component.

Is not someone who squats 315 for 20 reps stronger than someone who can do it for 5? Endurance sees a benefit from strength in that a stronger athlete will not have to fully exert himself to accomplish one task and so can perform that task repeatedly before becoming exhausted. For instance, if you're playing basketball, a stronger player may not exert himself as much to grab a rebound as a weaker player, and therefor should be able to preserve energy in the long run and increase his ability to jump repeatedly throughout the game.

Things get a little blurry when discussing endurance, specifically between cardiovascular and muscular. Many weightlifters ignore their cardiovascular strength to focus on muscular strength, since they operate in exertion ranges where the heart and lungs aren't required to exceed their typical capacity. Same with sprinters vs long distance runners. I was considering to go full-on bio nerd here in describing how different exercise activates different metabolic pathways and how that requires the muscular and cardiovascular systems to adapt to the circumstances, but I'll refrain.
post #13919 of 42712
"I have to make up attributes of people in better shape than me so i'm not crippled by crushing insecurity"
post #13920 of 42712
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

i agree with you that there is no one rep range for all lifters, but it seems topsy turvy to say that more reps can produce more power and strength than less reps, or less reps can produce more endurance than more reps.
i think there is leeway in work capacity of individuals so that a lifter could see optimal results at higher reps etc, but i dont think switching strength and endurance on the rep continuum works
you ever do bodyweight/gymnastics workouts? i feel like at the weights you're pushing you could hold a planche easy

While I generally agree that less reps = more strength and higher reps = more endurance. I just wanted to say that it isn't always true smile.gif

I've done them in the past here and there. Did a lot of lever holds for abs. I don't think I can do it now. It was much easier to do when I was ~170-175 and a little less bottom heavy haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by db_ggmm View Post

I definitely agree with a lot of what you've posted in the longer explanation, except I would argue one minor point. You are attributing your performance improvements from the widowmaker to an increase in 1rm capacity, while I would suggest again as I did a few posts ago that the widowmaker primarily trains squatting endurance which greatly assists in removing the glass ceiling from your 3, 5, and 8 rep training which most directly influences your 1rm. I don't know if there is any way to prove the benefit is endurance or strength, but the effect is real. This is generally what I suggested to the "why widowmaker" question.

Endurance and strength goes hand in hand in the widowmaker example.

But hey, if the effect is real, then why to the "why widowmaker" question? Hey man, if it ain't broke don't fix it. wink.gifwink.gifwink.gif
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