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The New Official Wolf vs. Goat Thread - Page 815

post #12211 of 15428
I'm thinking I need a pair of the lounge pants 2.0. Can anyone confirm if there is 4-way stretch? I'm assuming so, but maybe not.
post #12212 of 15428
Detailed measurements for each garment would help a ton. Epaulet spec's out all of their items individually and their measurements have helped me tremendously
post #12213 of 15428
Both agree and disagree.

I value construction/material at least as much as cut. You should only have to compromise on or the other with fast fashion type stuff. They're equally important to me. I mean if you just want stuff that doesn't fall apart after a couple washes, you can easily just do Uniqlo / Brooks Bros / J. Crew and call it a day.

When getting into more SW&D stuff, I think Mauro's going to have to figure out his ideal target demographic. People often bring up Epaulet as a comparison, which makes sense as they offer a lot of similar products. Yes, I know they have different retail models and Epaulet has B&M locations, etc. etc. Both brands are go-to's for my Monday through Friday business casual type stuff. However, I don't really reach for either brand for my true SW&D fits except the WvG T's. The OCBD's for both brands fit into work-wear-y type stuff, but that's about it. However, I think the target customers for both brands are people who wear business casual as as choice. The core customer base probably wears the same thing on weekends that they do M-F. There's a small handful of people who take their non-work wardrobe in a different direction (yes, I know there are a few on the forum, but I'm generalizing), but most of them play it safe in the upgraded J. Crew/Brook Bros/J. Press kind of lane. Maybe a few are into Americana. Epaulet has run into this problem and created a different line for more "casual" offerings, but their EPLA stuff is still pretty middle of the road.

This is all totally fine, but it will be hard to draw more true SW&D types into checking out the more "designed" offerings. These "edgier" pieces will likely be ignored by the current core customer. I mean you have people who think the hoodie and lounge pants are "out there". These are the same people who find BB Black Fleece to be "fashion", so they're not going to be terribly receptive to stuff that's not traditional. Their idea of taking a chance is a patterned OCBD or double monks (gasp!) or maybe even a Vibram sole. I'm sure there's a way to balance both demographics, but it's not going to be easy.

Also, the webstore is still buggy after all this years. This is pretty problematic for a brand that relies heavily on online direct sales. It could probably use a UI overhaul in general, but if it functioned seamlessly in its current state that would be a big help.
post #12214 of 15428
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc wid it View Post

Both agree and disagree.

I value construction/material at least as much as cut. You should only have to compromise on or the other with fast fashion type stuff. They're equally important to me. I mean if you just want stuff that doesn't fall apart after a couple washes, you can easily just do Uniqlo / Brooks Bros / J. Crew and call it a day.

Like I said, pretty good quality. I want better than mall brands, but I don't need the best of the best.

For instance:
  • Hand assembled zipper
  • Canvas belt loops
  • Hand sewn waist curtain
  • Canvas ban roll (no fusing used)
  • Tailored under pressing on each section
  • Hand pressed

What even is this stuff? Does it add enough to the piece to make it worth way more than everything else available?

I know you own a few john elliott/mmm/whatever else pieces... and you're saying construction over fit?
post #12215 of 15428
For their price points and their respective uses, yeah. Pretty much all the MMM stuff I own has pretty solid construction. Same with EG. The SLP I own I'm happy with the construction. Geller etc. too. I haven't had any issues with my JE stuff and I've beat the crap out of the jeans from there for 3 seasons or so. I bought the washed JE jeans as a value alternative to some washed DH's which I sold. Once you get out of the bare minimum, a lot becomes subjective. Am I paying a premium for cut and/or design/treatments? Yes, and I'm OK with this.

As far as all the crazy construction details, that's what drives a lot of "artisan" SW&D stuff. Look at CCP, Devoa etc. type tailoring or A1923 footwear. You have to care about those details that possibly nobody will notice besides yourself, otherwise there's no need to pay the premium for those brands. On the CM side you have people nerding out over pagoda shoulders, pick stitching, etc. I mean I finally bought some truly "nice" dress shirts and it's pretty next level. They cost almost half as much as my suits. Will most people notice? Probably not, but I appreciate the craftsmanship and it looks good.

I want the best of both worlds for the money I'm spending (which isn't top dollar relative to the forum, but it's enough where I shouldn't have issues in either department). I mean it's why I've sold off all my Aldens except one pair. Construction/QC are getting worse by the day. For that money I'll go with Carmina or I'll spend more and get C&J or Vass when I get shoes. I'll go with Viberg or C&J etc. for boots. I don't have the money for G&G or St. Crispins type stuff, but I would if I could. There's diminishing returns and it's up to you to decide how far up the ladder you want to go. Everybody has a different idea of "good enough".
post #12216 of 15428
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyc wid it View Post

For their price points and their respective uses, yeah. Pretty much all the MMM stuff I own has pretty solid construction. Same with EG. The SLP I own I'm happy with the construction. Geller etc. too.

EG is a good example. I don't own any, but I've read construction is top notch, and there's a price to pay for that. But EG, at least at retail, is obscenely expensive and you can bet that another portion that makes up this price is paying for the design and their unique fits. With WvG at present, no disrespect to Mauro, it feels like you pay for the construction/quality without the unique styling to go with it, thus prices are lower but there's also nothing interesting compelling me to make that purchase. Geller quality doesn't seem special to me, that seems like a case of paying for design, but it's also cheaper than some other fashion brands.
Quote:
As far as all the crazy construction details, that's what drives a lot of "artisan" SW&D stuff. Look at CCP, Devoa etc. type tailoring or A1923 footwear. You have to care about those details that possibly nobody will notice besides yourself, otherwise there's no need to pay the premium for those brands.

But that's not really the type of details he's offering at present. Unique tailoring or artisinal details would be awesome to start seeing, not just a beefier waistband or "hand constructed" zipper that is aesthetically the same. Excepting only the t-shirts, I see WvG much more as business casual/workwear as you described it rather than a true SW&D brand.

We don't completely disagree as I can appreciate some of the details to an extent, but I still favor fit and design. I guess what I'm really saying is, I'd pay more well constructed and interesting pieces (like EG), I'd pay the same for averagely constructed and interesting pieces (like the DRKSHDW jeans I just picked up *edit* actually retail on DRKSHDW is stupid, so not the best example, but was on sale...), I'm not enthused about paying the same for well constructed and uninspired pieces (WvG sweaters, khaki chinos, etc.). That's kind of harsh, so I'm sorry Mauro, but that's where I stand on some of your pieces if you just want raw truth.

*edit* And just read your response below. 110 on upcoming chinos is more palatable, will give them a shot. Bonobos sucks, they have a good marketing team and little else. Interested to see what the cheaper shirting brings, but the occasional splurge for special fabric is fine too such as the recent flannels and prints smile.gif
post #12217 of 15428
Quote:
Originally Posted by VLSI View Post

I didn't buy the hoodie because of the design. The black trim around the neck and sides, tall ribbing, and wvg tag on hood (to a lesser extent, a seam ripper would fix this one) put me off enough not to buy it. Just my personal taste, so you can't and shouldn't try to please everyone there smile.gif
Fit and consistency trump all else. Honestly, I think you get hung up on construction/quality too much. It drives up the price for things that I don't really care about. I want good quality, but there's a point of diminishing returns where I'd rather just pay less for something good enough. Fits well, looks good, made at least pretty well -- I'm happy.
Your t-shirts are great, will buy more. Over dyed shirts, great again, almost all my button ups are WvG now, will buy more. How much are the new chinos? The pair currently on your website has a retail of 385, and honestly, even the loyalty price is too much for me for what's essentially just cotton khaki chinos where the only thing that differentiates them from everything else is construction techniques, that again don't really matter to me. In general though, I don't buy your pants because I don't know what I'm getting, and for the price I have to be sure. It seems like the fit changes between every single model and I don't feel like paying two way shipping each time just to find out. Epaulet is able to command their prices because the fits are dialed in, they're not changing between each iteration of the item so people know what they're getting, and they use interesting fabrics.
Which piece are you referring to?

Also, if you want to attract the SW&D crowd, low-waisted trousers with slight drop crotch, roomy thighs, and aggressive taper, please and thank you devil.gif

Just the kind of feed back I was looking for. The Rick Owens look is not me nor the majority of my customers the 2.0 is as extreme as it's really going to get it doesn't get much slimmer in the leg.
I honestly don't think the change in my pants has changed but for the better . The bloodline chinos are expensive because they are hand sewn with beautiful fabric. 385.00 is what the pant is valued , 50 % off for what goes into the pants is a real deal. The regular chinos as it stand will retail for 220.00 that's 110.00 for rewards members. That's not a huge stretch from j.crew, bonobos, and the other lower tier designer chinos. The chinos have some great construction values that might be over looked by the average buyer but 110.00 for a premium garment made in the USA is a good deal assuming the style agrees with your body type. I guess the bloodline trousers are a hard pill to swollen for most, but the stand point of fabric and construction the pant is superior than any pant in the 192.50 to 250.00 trouser out there. They are on par with the brands that sell for $385.00 and up. The blog explains a brief overview about pant construction if you want to read it.
Epaulet used the same floral fabric print that I made shirts out of. If I make shorts and trousers ( bloodline) they would be around the same price as Epaulet but the difference would be the construction on my pant. My pant is made more traditional, it's literally hand sewn in the important key areas and doesn't using any fusing. Not saying anything bad about Epaulet at all. They make a nice pant. Now if I use that same fabric and had a regular pant maker like hartling or another reputable pant maker make them the pants with the rewards membership would be about 110.00 to 120.00.

I do understand my pants aren't as go to as my tops, hopefully the chinos and the new bloodline trousers will change that. Again it's really safe to say that anyone who has purchased my bloodline trousers has been very happy with them and so have their tailors.
I appreciate the feedback and look forward to more so that I can make you want in my vision.

It could be I am out of touch with my core clients thinking. They might not want an incredible fabric or outstanding construction, maybe good fabric and good construction trumps the step or two above good. If this is the case I will make small batches of good fabric that will retail for around 140.00 to 150.00 dollars. I have done a few times but the prints are checking so strong and so is the chambray and that's expensive. It's funny how a 220.00 chambray will sell but a 385.00 pant that you will wear the fuck out of doesn't move as fast but it still falls ( after rewards ) in the same price as a regular good quality pant would. It's very interesting and frustrating for me. I want the best for my customers and myself and sometimes I think about myself and should listen to my customers more.
I look forward to more feedback and people thoughts.

The 2.0 has no stretch component other the being a knit. It's 100% cotton. It's holds it shape incredibly well. I needed to wash mine so I am not wearing them but I have worn the hell out of them and they are amazing pants .
post #12218 of 15428
I guess there's a bit of a disconnect like @VLSI mentioned, because here in SW&D crazy construction is generally paired with crazy design. In CM however, crazy construction is paired with traditional design. Greg recently ran into this issue with NMWA. People in CM don't get why ts(s) costs so much, because they aren't used to seeing insane construction/material details in casual clothes. Also, a lot of them inherently dismiss casual clothing, so there's that bias to overcome as well. We probably inherently dismiss chinos/OCBD's as "boring work clothes".

Whether or not any of these issues translate to Mauro's customer base from other places like reddit/stockists/etc. I have no clue.

ETA: maybe more posts in the blog explaining these construction details with photos or video? Or just a separate tab on the site to educate consumers? Like when all of these details are being listed in the product, they could link to a post (or hover over pop-up) that explains what it means. I'm not going to pretend like I know what all of those details are, so I would imagine that your run of the mill consumer definitely has no clue. People can't really assess "worth" without knowing what goes into things.
post #12219 of 15428
I actually like the humongous ribbing of the hoodie. Reminds me of the vintage sweats like Real McCoy's. That said, the fit seems too slim (I dunno, like cyc said we need more detailed size chart) and sleeve seems too long to account for the ribbing. But then, I am only looking at the fit picture worn by a guy whose measurement I have no clue on. Low rise aggressive taper is definitely a lot more SW&D friendly, and I frankly would like WvG to offer somewhat roomier sweats option. Sized up vag fabric knickers was an eye-opener for me.
post #12220 of 15428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mauro View Post


I do understand my pants aren't as go to as my tops, hopefully the chinos and the new bloodline trousers will change that. Again it's really safe to say that anyone who has purchased my bloodline trousers has been very happy with them and so have their tailors.
.

This is true for me, but honestly I'm not sure why. I have a ton of pieces from you, and only 2 of those are pants (the Redemption jeans & a pair of chinos from 2 or 3 years ago). I'll make a point of grabbing some of the new chinos.

For me, at least, I'm mostly in the category that cyc described. The tees & sweaters are fantastic, and I'm really loving the prints. Things like the lounge pants aren't really on my radar, but that's just a difference in taste. I think cyc's point about figuring out the ideal target demographic is the most important one.

On another note, I just ordered a marled hoodie for my son...because every 14 year old wants to dress like his father.
post #12221 of 15428
Quote:
Originally Posted by VLSI View Post

EG is a good example. I don't own any, but I've read construction is top notch, and there's a price to pay for that. But EG, at least at retail, is obscenely expensive and you can bet that another portion that makes up this price is paying for the design and their unique fits. With WvG at present, no disrespect to Mauro, it feels like you pay for the construction/quality without the unique styling to go with it, thus prices are lower but there's also nothing interesting compelling me to make that purchase. Geller quality doesn't seem special to me, that seems like a case of paying for design, but it's also cheaper than some other fashion brands.
But that's not really the type of details he's offering at present. Unique tailoring or artisinal details would be awesome to start seeing, not just a beefier waistband or "hand constructed" zipper that is aesthetically the same. Excepting only the t-shirts, I see WvG much more as business casual/workwear as you described it rather than a true SW&D brand.

We don't completely disagree as I can appreciate some of the details to an extent, but I still favor fit and design. I guess what I'm really saying is, I'd pay more well constructed and interesting pieces (like EG), I'd pay the same for averagely constructed and interesting pieces (like the DRKSHDW jeans I just picked up *edit* actually retail on DRKSHDW is stupid, so not the best example, but was on sale...), I'm not enthused about paying the same for well constructed and uninspired pieces (WvG sweaters, khaki chinos, etc.). That's kind of harsh, so I'm sorry Mauro, but that's where I stand on some of your pieces if you just want raw truth.

*edit* And just read your response below. 110 on upcoming chinos is more palatable, will give them a shot. Bonobos sucks, they have a good marketing team and little else. Interested to see what the cheaper shirting brings, but the occasional splurge for special fabric is fine too such as the recent flannels and prints smile.gif[/

I appreciate the honesty, no offense is taken by any means. If you do make up the core then it puts me in an awkward spot. I was raised to buy quality over quantity and to wear something for awhile. I still do that. That's why I make my sweaters as I do. The quality will be there for years and years. Yes it's basic but that helps season after season of wear. You can get away with wearing basics time after time and you want them to hold up. I think you and cyc have brought up valid points. I am still a new brand despite what a lot of people think. I am still growing as a designer if I didn't I don't think this would be a good gig for me or for my customers who will change and grow as well. I am trying to merge tradition and contemporary together and it's hard. I think sticking with basics and throwing in some novelty is the way to go if I know my customers want something special and not just a few people who voice their opinion, openly.
I really do appreciate your insight. I look at things different from 99% of the consumers. Now that I know about Ts(s) I will say this construction wise we aren't far apart at all. His line shines with his fabric and trim. It's beautiful. Beautiful fabrics paired with Japanese manufacturing is EXPENSIVE there is no way around that.

I am working on video to help educate. The blog is coming along well we have started to add pictures and if I need to get more detailed I will. Key buzz words and goofy shirt like that has always bugged me but done correctly could most certainly be to my advantage.
The web sight is another issue. I am on the shopify platform and I am limited to what options they have for me. If I have to customize a website that costs some crazy cash and I just don't have that , yet.

Another thing I don't want or can't afford to do is get into pissing contests over clothing construction , fabrics, and fits with people on the web. Those days are over. That's another reason I don't say a lot. I am hoping people will want to figure it out for themselves. The bloodline pants are the best example because usually a tailor says something about the pant which in turn makes the client validated and great, because they now know they own an outstanding pair of pants.
It's hard to talk about certain fashion points when fashion is subjective. Being subjective people don't need to care about fact or reasons because they could give a shit. Just like VLSI could care less about the construction and that's totally cool.
As the designer I am seen differently than other members on the forum. I sell clothes why should they believe me? So much shit has be feed to people by marketing it diminishes my ability to educate because people think it's a trick to sell them. It's like I am damned if I do damned if I don't. I am so happy however that this thread has taken such a positive turn. It's very similar to when I am on reddit. Those guys are very positive. It's fun for me to open up and talk to them.
The way you guys worded your comments were excellent and I appreciate the feedback.
As you know if anyone is not comfortable posting they can always email me and let me know there thoughts.
post #12222 of 15428

I really like the shirts WvG puts out since Mauro uses a lot of interesting material at a much more affordable price point. The pants on the other hand don't really appeal to me, like some of the guys mentioned, details like hand assembled zippers don't really mean much to me.

I'll pick up a pair of jeans and dandy pants when they launch.

post #12223 of 15428
Size charts are crucial for the pants. I think the bloodline khakis still haven't been updated (granted Mauro sent me some measurements)?
Sometimes I think the fabrics you have been putting out are too aggressive. I just want some basics to be able to wear around the office.
post #12224 of 15428
Honestly, I think more cohesion would help your line. For example, aside from the bloodline trousers, you can't really buy a full outfit from WvG since products are sort of all over the place (lounge pants here, button down there, expensive belts, etc.). Not sure how they're selling, but I also don't think you need belts/accessories just yet, especially at the current price point. You're venturing into a price range that is hard to sell, even for brands that have a following for those types of goods, and it's hard for people to justify that type of money for a name they probably don't associate with leather goods.

But, you seem to be finding a niche with unique shirting fabrics, and people obviously love your shirt fit/quality. I think a more holistic approach would benefit the brand moving forward. Once the basics, such as pants, shirts and casual jackets, are all dialed in and available on a regular basis, then explore accessories or more risky items. Just my 2 cents, and hope it's not taken the wrong way.
post #12225 of 15428

I wanted to buy the lounge pants 2.0, but they dropped after I left the country. I'm traveling through Southeast Asia with pretty sporadic/terrible internet access (wouldn't be surprised if this post doesn't go through) right now, but hopefully a pair of 30 or 31 sticks around until I get solid enough internet to kop.

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