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Favorite piece by Wagner? - Page 3

post #31 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
oh, boy, where to begin?
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1. While I personally have fondness for a lot of wagner, and while I personally am open to free flow of culture, I can fully understand the unofficial banning of wagner from the large orchastras and opera house in israel. if for no other reason that that there are still a lot of holocust survivors in israel, and that the music brings on tramatic memories. it is not an attempt to keep jews or israelis from knowing wagner, his material is still sold in israel, most israelis travel and have an opportunity to hear wagner performed live, if they so wish, and the smaller musical organizations play wagner - this is not an act of censorship so much as sensibility.
Oh, I understand the general Israeli/Jewish dislike of Wagner perfectly well - he was a self-procalimed anti-semite, and so, that would be perfectly natural. However, I wouldn't really understand an official banning of any of his music, in the same way that I think Israel should be the last country in the world to ban Mein Kampf. (The book is banned in Germany, which I find quite absurd.)
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3. I think that the conductor, barambuim, acted in an extremly rude and unacceptable way. he was invited in, he knew the rules, what he did was not acceptable.
I agree - this is just a question of manners.
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4. I find it interesting that he needs to talk about wagner with Edward Said, somebody who literally made arafat look like a moderate, when it came to israel. 5. I also find it interesting that a socialist e-paper finds this newworthy.
Telling, I agree, but not necessarily that unexpected or interesting. Having to differentiate between artists and their politics is always problematic, I find. Sometimes it looks like artistic talent and political idiocy is directly connected.
post #32 of 91
Curb Your Enthusiasm jokes aside, that was actually my first introduction Wagner. I instantly fell in love with Siegfried Idyll when I heard it performed in his house.
post #33 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQgeek
Curb Your Enthusiasm jokes aside, that was actually my first introduction Wagner. I instantly fell in love with Siegfried Idyll when I heard it performed in his house.

Funny you mention it; ever since I started this thread I have been playing it for the last 3 days. It truly is quite unlike any other work by Wagner.

Jon.
post #34 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arethusa
Lehár was an antisemite?
Chopin was an anti-Semite, that doesn’t stop me from listening to his music… Which brings me to the ‘Ban’ of Wagner’s music in Israel. The reason why his music is banned in Israel is not because it was used by the Nazi’s in film, or during rallies or because Hitler appropriated the Bayreuth festival for himself, rather the reason for the ‘Ban’ was because the music was used in concentration camps, and was the prominent music used by the Nazi doctors in concentration camps while performing their sick, inhumane experiments. If you are a person who survived those experiments, and was physically experimented by the Nazi’s while the music of Wagner was playing, the last thing you ever want to hear again is the music of Wagner. And no person who went through that should be exposed to mentally relive that experience. In another 20 years, when none of the concentration camp survivors are with us, then I think Israel can lax its view regarding Wagner’s music. Jon.
post #35 of 91
I have the same reaction to the Ludwig Van.
post #36 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
oh, boy, where to begin?


1. While I personally have fondness for a lot of wagner, and while I personally am open to free flow of culture, I can fully understand the unofficial banning of wagner from the large orchastras and opera house in israel. if for no other reason that that there are still a lot of holocust survivors in israel, and that the music brings on tramatic memories. it is not an attempt to keep jews or israelis from knowing wagner, his material is still sold in israel, most israelis travel and have an opportunity to hear wagner performed live, if they so wish, and the smaller musical organizations play wagner - this is not an act of censorship so much as sensibility.


My views are similar to yours here but there is a parallel that I find interesting:

Fritz Haber was a German chemist whose very strong advocacy of gas warfare lead to its introduction in WW I by the Germans. Subsequently he oversaw the development of Zyklon B, which, of course, was used in the extermination camps. He won a Nobel prize for his discovery of the chemical synthesis of ammonia (and hence fertilizers and explosives). We would not recoil from using his process ('his creation') but where does this differ from our aversion to Wagner's 'creation'? Is it merely utility?

Would our views of Wagner differ had he not been anti-Semitic?



Aus
post #37 of 91
What about the Volkswagon?
post #38 of 91
and they talk about freedom of speech. how embarrassingly pathetic! my favorite piece by Wagner, maybe Adagietto
post #39 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aus_MD
My views are similar to yours here but there is a parallel that I find interesting:

Fritz Haber was a German chemist whose very strong advocacy of gas warfare lead to its introduction in WW I by the Germans. Subsequently he oversaw the development of Zyklon B, which, of course, was used in the extermination camps. He won a Nobel prize for his discovery of the chemical synthesis of ammonia (and hence fertilizers and explosives). We would not recoil from using his process ('his creation') but where does this differ from our aversion to Wagner's 'creation'? Is it merely utility?

Would our views of Wagner differ had he not been anti-Semitic?



Aus


1. part of it is a matter of utility - I have no problem also with the world using the results of the nazi medical experiments to forward science:even though they were horrible experements, there were many parts that will never be repeated and brought in huge amounts of information. that information shouldn't be wasted. I have no problem with the world using inventions that were developed by nazis. art, is another story, it does imply some issues of choice. using artificially manufactured amonia may help feed tens of millions of people a year or more, the idea that 2 orchastras and an opera house do not perform music by a specific composer is no such hardship.

2. we also need to put in perspective Wagner's relationship with the nazis, and the nazis relationship with Wagner. he wasn't anti-semitic in the way that, for instance, Mark Twain was racially insensitive. Wagner was a cornerstone of the culture of a barbaric and destructive state. Although Wagner could not have known what the german people would do in the 1940's - he would not have found it either distirbing or foreign. Wagner's music was part of the daily life of the 3rd riech.

3. Although I happen to be a huge fan of much of german culture, I think that, as a result of what the german people did during the 30's and 40's many parts of that culture should almost have a "Warning label" - should be treated as something that, while aesthetically valuable is culturally tainted. Wagner and his music is the prime example of this.
post #40 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geowu
and they talk about freedom of speech. how embarrassingly pathetic!


what the fuck is that supposed to mean?
post #41 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

I have no clue either, but I really don't like where its headed...

Jon.
post #42 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
I have no clue either, but I really don't like where its headed...

Jon.


yes, at this point, in a bar, somebody would be having beer poured on his shoes.
post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
1. part of it is a matter of utility - I have no problem also with the world using the results of the nazi medical experiments to forward science:even though they were horrible experements, there were many parts that will never be repeated and brought in huge amounts of information. that information shouldn't be wasted. I have no problem with the world using inventions that were developed by nazis. art, is another story, it does imply some issues of choice. using artificially manufactured amonia may help feed tens of millions of people a year or more, the idea that 2 orchastras and an opera house do not perform music by a specific composer is no such hardship.

2. we also need to put in perspective Wagner's relationship with the nazis, and the nazis relationship with Wagner. he wasn't anti-semitic in the way that, for instance, Mark Twain was racially insensitive. Wagner was a cornerstone of the culture of a barbaric and destructive state. Although Wagner could not have known what the german people would do in the 1940's - he would not have found it either distirbing or foreign. Wagner's music was part of the daily life of the 3rd riech.

3. Although I happen to be a huge fan of much of german culture, I think that, as a result of what the german people did during the 30's and 40's many parts of that culture should almost have a "Warning label" - should be treated as something that, while aesthetically valuable is culturally tainted. Wagner and his music is the prime example of this.

A gentle distinction: Wagner had no relationship with the Nazis, being long dead by the time they came around. He died in 1883, six years before Hitler's birth, and 50 years before his music was claimed by the Nazis.

I absolutely understand why there would be no performances of his music in Israel.
post #44 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
yes, at this point, in a bar, somebody would be having beer poured on his shoes.

After it was passed through my kidneys and bladder...
post #45 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Checks
A gentle distinction: Wagner had no relationship with the Nazis, being long dead by the time they came around. He died in 1883, six years before Hitler's birth, and 50 years before his music was claimed by the Nazis.

I absolutely understand why there would be no performances of his music in Israel.



thank you - I realized that he died in the 19th century, but I didn't have the date available.
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