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deconstructed fashion plate - Page 3

post #31 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post
I don't think this is entirely fair; every welted shoe I've ever seen made has SOME sort of filling in the shoe, because the welt and the upper are higher than the insole, creating a space between the insole and the outsole. So, while some bespoke makers use other filling materials -- leather or tarred felt -- they all need something to fill the gap. Thus, to me, this is not an issue of gemming vs. a leather holdfast, but rather a materials decision made by the maker. I think all factories use cork, since a cork 'paste' is fast and easy to apply; although, in this regard, it validates DW's view of economics perhaps trumping quality. FWIW, I have seen bespoke makers using cork as well.
I don't think I am doing anything special in this regard but it is a technique that I have been concentrating on for a while--trying to refine. When I inseam a shoe, the cavity I end up with is significantly less than 2mm deep. I can fill it with a scrap of 3 ounce cream cow and it may even be a little proud of the welt although the softness of the filler will compress. I would guess that at minimum the cavity created by gemming is one-eighth inch deep and probably then some.
Quote:
With respect to gemming, DW, how often have you seen the gemming/insole interface fail? I know this topic has been of some contention elsewhere, and others claim the gemming/insole interface is very stable.
I have seen it many times...it is, in all honesty, the very reason I am so dead set against gemming. When I first got into this business I supported my "downtown" shop by doing shoe repair when I wasn't making boots. I came to despise gemming and the manufacturers that resorted to it. I admit it--it's an "issue" with me. But I've seen failed gemming on the first opening of the outsole...when the cork, although shifted, was so clean it might have just come out of the pot. And it is almost to be expected when the outsole has been worn to the extent that a hole has opened. In such circumstances failed gemming is actually more common than not. I might add that I agree with Rolf that cut and fold holdfasts are not a good answer. I don't think I've ever seen the canvas reinforcing he is talking about but I've seen cut and fold that was broken down...maybe because the cork shifted and the weight of the body, no longer cushioned by the cork, broke the holdfast down. I used to attribute it to poor quality insole leather...and that may be a factor...but I suspect it is simply the unmitigated weight.
post #32 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJman View Post
Meh. There are advantages to buying shoes one can actually try on somewhere. Too many groupthink sheep around here forget the importance of that.

Also, Dimitri Gomez pwns all your MTO Vass/Crispin bases.

That's a good point. I had a chance to try them out first when Louis carried Vass...maybe aportnoy did as well. And those who are in Europe get to try both still.

EGs are only barely more available stateside. Lobbs more, but still, not really ubiquitous.

It rings true that the Gomez and the new top line RTW Cleverley makes might be more nicely made than Vass, and maybe more nicely designed...but Vass is a very good value. You just have to be prepared for defeat if a Vass doesn't happen to fit.


- B
post #33 of 269
Hmmm, the pocket watch chain with the trick or treat atmosphere and the Elliot Ness sneer sort of suggests this man is an iGent.
post #34 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff View Post
Hmmm, the pocket watch chain with the trick or treat atmosphere and the Elliot Ness sneer sort of suggests this man is an iGent.

I look forward to a shoe circle where the next frames are the participants dismantling their shoes, ending with bare feet in a feet circle.


- B
post #35 of 269
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxsartoria View Post
You just have to be prepared for defeat if a Vass doesn't happen to fit.
The agony of defeat, so to speak...
post #36 of 269
What type of construction is this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnGeLiCbOrIs View Post





















post #37 of 269
Thread Starter 
I would call it goodyear welt construction. Thornton...probably a better source...simply calls it welted. It is, however, hand inseamed to a hand channeled insole...which is a far cry from a gemmed construction and all the difference in the world.
post #38 of 269
So would you consider this superior to the methods pictured on the French "deconstruction" thread? Is this the type of construction you advocate?
post #39 of 269
Hmm...can't use steam on my suits because the seams go kablooey. Can't buy EGs or Lobbs because they fall apart as fast as Walmart shoes.

Not sure what this forum is really doing for me.
post #40 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by catchit View Post
So would you consider this superior to the methods pictured on the French "deconstruction" thread? Is this the type of construction you advocate?
It's the kind of construction I use. But I have never said...quite the contrary...that it is the only alternative. What I am doing...and despite the intellectual hesitation of a few...doing pretty well, I think...is provide information about an item that is central to the interests of this forum. Come on, folks, what are we talking about? Here on this forum...here in this thread? Aren't we talking about quality? Isn't information (knowledge) that impacts your understanding of quality important to you? Or am I mistaken? And we're really talking about expediency? Quick and easy. Convenience. Short attention spans. Shine versus substance. Sure, I advocate hand inseams and even hand stitching on welts. I advocate bespoke as the best quality you will ever see. But I also recognize...and have made the point myownself, repeatedly...that not everyone is open to bespoke. That said, gemming is bottom rung stuff. That's the opinion of someone who has made his entire living making bespoke footwear for the last 40 years. Take it for what it is worth. If it were the opinion of someone who sold real estate and wore shoes it would be something else, I'm sure. Your mileage will vary.
post #41 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgetorix View Post
Hmm...can't use steam on my suits because the seams go kablooey. Can't buy EGs or Lobbs because they fall apart as fast as Walmart shoes. Not sure what this forum is really doing for me.
You need to take more advice from the folks who really are in the know (I don't pretend to be one of them). And speaking only for myself of course, I'm always open to becoming even more dependent on other people's opinions, esp. about what clothes I should wear..
post #42 of 269
My last post was tongue-in-cheek, obviously. But it's interesting--this is the second instance I've seen of an interesting phenomenon. That is, an expert like yourself comes on the forum and posts interesting information that seems reasonable but has never been brought up by any of the other very knowledgeable people who post here. Previously it was jefferyd's warnings about using steam on suits, lest the seams lose their shaping. Now it's the danger of gemmed construction falling apart on even the most expensive RTW footwear.

In both cases, it's really hard to discount the experience and expertise of you and jefferyd--you've both been experts in your respective trades for decades, and presumably you know what you're talking about.

But on the other hand, both of these issues are things that seem like they ought to have been brought up before either of you started posting. There are other tailors who post here and at AAAC, yet I don't remember them ever warning against the use of steam so stridently. Likewise, there's at least one other cobbler and many other very knowledgeable shoe folks who post here, and I've never heard any of them decry gemmed construction as stridently as you do.

I just don't know what--or whom--to believe: the expert opinion of one or the less-expert-but-knowledgeable silence of a lot more people?
post #43 of 269
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orgetorix View Post
My last post was tongue-in-cheek, obviously. But it's interesting--this is the second instance I've seen of an interesting phenomenon. That is, an expert like yourself comes on the forum and posts interesting information that seems reasonable but has never been brought up by any of the other very knowledgeable people who post here. Previously it was jefferyd's warnings about using steam on suits, lest the seams lose their shaping. Now it's the danger of gemmed construction falling apart on even the most expensive RTW footwear. In both cases, it's really hard to discount the experience and expertise of you and jefferyd--you've both been experts in your respective trades for decades, and presumably you know what you're talking about. But on the other hand, both of these issues are things that seem like they ought to have been brought up before either of you started posting. There are other tailors who post here and at AAAC, yet I don't remember them ever warning against the use of steam so stridently. Likewise, there's at least one other cobbler and many other very knowledgeable shoe folks who post here, and I've never heard any of them decry gemmed construction as stridently as you do. I just don't know what--or whom--to believe: the expert opinion of one or the less-expert-but-knowledgeable silence of a lot more people?
There's another interesting phenomenon going on here. I don't blatantly push my business. I offer most of what I post in the same manner and for the same reasons that I administer a forum for bespoke shoe and bootmakers. There, I post detailed explanations of techniques, and essays that explore aesthetic considerations, philosophies, motivations, etc.. Parenthetically, I teach bootmaking and have several books that I have written that do the same. I sell them. I derive a significant portion of my income from them. Sometimes I post excerpts...and not just teasers..wholesale from the books. No charge. I post these kinds of things because I am dedicated, and have been for several decades, to the preservation of the Shoemaking Trade. And yes, understand that if bespoke making is better understood and respected, I will benefit even if only by some trickle-down effect. But the main goal is to "preserve and protect" (the motto of my Guild) and to see to it that the knowledge is passed onto another generation without too much being lost on my/our watch. I don't want to be seen as an "expert." I don't think of myself that way. But that said, and although it still smacks of self promotion to too great a degree for my complete comfort, I do think of myself as an educator. And as someone who feels like he is doing more than just using oxygen. In the end you can take the information I have provided and do what you want with it. It's free...no advertisements. Take it for what it is worth. As for no one else decrying gemming as stridently as I have...well there are two aspects of that, as I see it.... First, most people don't even know what gemming is, or how it affects the integrity of the shoe and how or when to attribute a shoe problem to gemming. How would they even begin to assess the reasons why a shoe that has just been resoled is too tight? And the other aspect is that, as a long time cordwainer I could tell you that I have never had a misfit. Many, many (maybe most) of my colleagues and contemporaries make exactly that claim. Do you believe them? I cannot dispute their claims...nor do I really have any interest in doing so. But I have always said that any shoemaker who claims to never to have had a misfit is either lying or needs to revise his standards of fit. Think about that...it's appropriate.
post #44 of 269
I do consider you an expert--more of one than just about anybody else here, to be sure--and as such I really appreciate your participation and the educating you've done here. Your posts are almost always fascinating and informative.
post #45 of 269
Thread Starter 
Just a quick after-thought...if only because I know that my post (or rather the link therein) gored more than a few sacred oxes... In all likelihood only certain lines of shoes from these firms are gemmed. If people not only questioned this practice but refused to buy shoes that were gemmed, the manufacturers would be forced to go to something better. And I'm not necessarily talking about bespoke. The fact that people don't think to do this and even defend practices that they fundamentally don't understand...at some level don't really want to understand...only serves to underscore my point about how easily we all buy into the factory mentality. 90% plus of really knowing, appreciating, and understanding shoes...or even the concept of "quality" for that matter...is knowing what is important and what is not. Asking the right questions--the other 10% is unflinching objectivity.
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