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deconstructed fashion plate - Page 18

post #256 of 269
2/13/11 at 6:07pm
^ Same for Alden. Do they use gemming? Sorry if this has already been answered earlier.
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post #257 of 269
2/14/11 at 2:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by REguy View Post
^ Same for Alden. Do they use gemming? Sorry if this has already been answered earlier.

According to this video at 2:42 they use cork. So, from what DWFII said below in bold it seems likely. However, I'm no expert, perhaps some of the show construction experts can view the video and confirm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Gemming creates the need for cork filler. That cork is fugitive and will move away from pressure points. Insoles filled with cork are nearly always bare of cork under the ball of the foot. And if the insole is fiberboard or thin, poor quality leather, the insole itself may wear out (developing a hole)...it certainly will not provide any cushioning to the foot nor will it mold itself to the bottom of the foot.
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post #258 of 269
2/14/11 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 
Although it can be done...there are machines that will do direct welt to insole inseaming...I don't know of any factory made shoe that does not use gemming.
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post #259 of 269
2/14/11 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Although it can be done...there are machines that will do direct welt to insole inseaming...I don't know of any factory made shoe that does not use gemming.

I do.

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post #260 of 269
2/14/11 at 10:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
I do.
Right...I probably overstated that. But aside from glue-ons and Blakes, Blake/Rapids, pegged construction and so forth, can you name one factory made welted shoe that does not use gemming? I would seriously like to know.
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post #261 of 269
2/14/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Right...I probably overstated that.

But aside from glue-ons and Blakes, Blake/Rapids, pegged construction and so forth, can you name one factory made welted shoe that does not use gemming?

I would seriously like to know.

Yes, I can. But, you'll have to wait until May when I bring this construction out at the Trunk Show at Leffot.

Actually, I know 2 different factories doing this work - just spent 2 weeks in Italy working on this idea (and others).

Cheers!
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post #262 of 269
2/14/11 at 11:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Yes, I can. But, you'll have to wait until May when I bring this construction out at the Trunk Show at Leffot.

Actually, I know 2 different factories doing this work - just spent 2 weeks in Italy working on this idea (and others).

Cheers!

Is this construction the same as the ones produced for j.gilbert collab? Great boots, really looking forward to the Trunk Show.
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post #263 of 269
2/14/11 at 12:01pm
Thread Starter 
Rider, Well, obviously you want to play this pretty close to the vest. I don't blame you. So I am not going to speculate too much . I will say this, however, given the much Bally-hooed Blake/Rapid construction (which like many constructions techniques is only as good as its weakest component--either technique or material) I wonder why you are moving to another (gemming-less) method of construction? If this new method of construction is a welted shoe in the sense that is commonly used, the fact that you looked for an alternative to gemming raises some interesting questions, don't you think? Whatever the reason, if you are developing a construction method that uses high quality materials and techniques that make the best use of those materials, and eschews such expediencies as using glue or fiberboard as primary structural elements/dependencies, you are to be congratulated. I wish you well.
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post #264 of 269
2/14/11 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Yes, I can. But, you'll have to wait until May when I bring this construction out at the Trunk Show at Leffot.

Actually, I know 2 different factories doing this work - just spent 2 weeks in Italy working on this idea (and others).

Cheers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Right...I probably overstated that.

But aside from glue-ons and Blakes, Blake/Rapids, pegged construction and so forth, can you name one factory made welted shoe that does not use gemming?

I would seriously like to know.

Vass, St. Crispin

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post
Rider,

Well, obviously you want to play this pretty close to the vest. I don't blame you.

So I am not going to speculate too much .

I will say this, however, given the much Bally-hooed Blake/Rapid construction (which like many constructions techniques is only as good as its weakest component--either technique or material) I wonder why you are moving to another (gemming-less) method of construction?

If this new method of construction is a welted shoe in the sense that is commonly used, the fact that you looked for an alternative to gemming raises some interesting questions, don't you think?

Whatever the reason, if you are developing a construction method that uses high quality materials and techniques that make the best use of those materials, and eschews such expediencies as using glue or fiberboard as primary structural elements/dependencies, you are to be congratulated. I wish you well.

I think for ready made shoes other than the non-gemmed goodyear welted shoes blake/rapid is the best construction. The mid sole basically acts as a leather holdfast giving you the support of a piece of leather without cork. I can definitely feel the difference between a corked goodyear welted shoe and blake/rapid. I don't get anything to say it, but Ron's shoes by far give the most support to my feet. All of my goodyear corked shoes "sag" at pressure points pretty quickly. Between buying bespoke shoes and the best RTW I would take blake/rapid any day. It seems ridiculous to have to shell out tons of money for a bespoke shoe when there is an alternative construction that is just as good.
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post #265 of 269
2/14/11 at 12:23pm
No.

My bread and butter is Rapid work - especially for rubber sole boots (Vibram, Sestriere or Dainite) - but I did want to venture into some welt work as long as I could do what I had in mind, which is a more flexible version than is typically found on the market. Standard welt construction only offers one advantage, IMO, over Rapid work, and that is the ability to trim the welt/sole closer to the margin of the upper.....and that's not really my game, as I make a more rugged production. And, I have always (and still do) feel that the use of a full leather midsole provides for a much sturdier boot than the normal cork/glue mixture in between the welt and insole of welted boots. However, as we have grown over the last 18 months, I wanted to branch out into an idea I've had where I could offer the strength of Rapid and the flexibility of Blake construction - which meant it would have to be done on the Goodyear method. Fortunately, a couple of others (there are more I'm sure....but 2 I know and keep in touch with) have been working on this also, and the samples I requested came out fine indeed. More than fine, actually. And, due to the incredible downturn in production in Italy of the last couple of years, suppliers have been far more willing to tackle new ideas where in the past it just wasn't worth the time.

So, we will see where this goes.....I tweaked some things and the next finished sample range is expected to be ready to show at Leffot. As long as everything goes as planned, it should be a nice, if small, addition to the line. One thing for sure, it will be premium priced - no way around that - so, like always, the customer will determine if there is interest in this kind of work. At least from me.

Point here is that there are factories (well, they sit more between a workshop and a factory in scale) making non-gemmed welt constructions.

Ron
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post #266 of 269
2/14/11 at 12:53pm
I believe JM Weston use a cut-and-turned lip for their shoes. They also own their own tannery for bottom leather. On their website they have a video with a few interesting features. They pound, rather than rolling, their bottom leather to compress it.
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post #267 of 269
2/14/11 at 1:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDER View Post
Point here is that there are factories (well, they sit more between a workshop and a factory in scale) making non-gemmed welt constructions.
Well, that's kind of the point I was making in this set. (I did mention machines that can do direct welt to insole construction). There's a whole lot of questions that are raised by this discussion: Whether the transition from hand-welted to goodyear (or worse) makes the transition from workshop to factory inevitable. Whether the transition from workshop to factory makes the use of fiberboard (and all similar products) inevitable. Whether your choice to use B/R, or a new construction method that avoids gemming, doesn't underscore the inherent weakness of gemming and devaluation of GY constructed shoes. I know we've been over this but it is worth reviewing for those who are new to these issues (and for those who've already made up their minds...'just say "no"') Goodyear, as it is commonly done (with gemming) relies on cement or glue to hold the shoe together. Blake/Rapid relies on a decent leather insole (not a glorified sock liner) to achieve the quality it promises. My whole point in all of this is that, although I sincerely believe that hand-welted is the best method of construction known to man, that belief is based on the core principle that I stated above: any shoe is only as good as its weakest link--technique or material. A shoe that relies on gemming (canvas) and glue...no direct welt to upper to insole connection...is inherently flawed because the glue is the weakest link, followed closely by the canvas.
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post #268 of 269
2/14/11 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post
Vass, St. Crispin
I am not sure where Vass is as regards being a workshop or a factory. In my mind, if a pair of shoes is made entirely (or almost entirely)...from start to finish...by one set of hands, the operation is a workshop. To the degree that other hands are involved or to the degree that unskilled (non-shoemaking) hands are making critical decisions regarding technique or materials, the work shop designation quickly loses all meaning.
Quote:
I think for ready made shoes other than the non-gemmed goodyear welted shoes blake/rapid is the best construction. The mid sole basically acts as a leather holdfast giving you the support of a piece of leather without cork. I can definitely feel the difference between a corked goodyear welted shoe and blake/rapid. I don't get anything to say it, but Ron's shoes by far give the most support to my feet. All of my goodyear corked shoes "sag" at pressure points pretty quickly. Between buying bespoke shoes and the best RTW I would take blake/rapid any day. It seems ridiculous to have to shell out tons of money for a bespoke shoe when there is an alternative construction that is just as good.
I agree with all of this. Some points I made or have made almost since the day I came on SF. That said, I have seen B/R done on fiberboard insoles or on glorified sock liners. At which point, B/R isn't much better than GY. If as good...considering the repair/rebuild possibilities.
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post #269 of 269
11/28/11 at 5:06am
Bumping an SF classic. Does anyone know what happened with the factory-made yet not gemmed shoes Ron Rider was talking about?
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