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Lets talk about COFFEE - Page 157

post #2341 of 2943
Bought some Sumatra Mandheling (medium filter roast) today. Will try it later. I think I'ver never had a coffee from Sumatra.
post #2342 of 2943
Knowing your tastes I can't see you liking it. Although I prefer roasts on the darker side I have had few really good examples of medium roasted Sumatra beans.
post #2343 of 2943
+1 on darker roasts for Sumatras...

Coffee, Oregon-Style, this morning (from Springfield, OR).

post #2344 of 2943
do you guys feel like blonding point is kind of overrated as the optimal stopping point? i've been visiting a lot of cafes recently and drinking lots of espresso. i used to judge by color a lot and find a lot of baristas go quite a bit past blonding point, but the bitterness from the latter part of the shot still doesn't really balance out the acidity from the beginning (as in they should pull it even longer past the blonding point)

i don't understand anymore the point of up dosing and then grinding it finer for a shorter shot. seems like if anything if you were going to updose you should pull a longer shot to keep the balance otherwise the acidity is out of whack.

@joshuadowen what do you train your baristas to do? do you guys also do these up dosed ristretto shots?
post #2345 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

It sounds familiar, but I can't remember if I had it. Is there a location in NYC?

No it's located some in southern Cali. I have ordered quite a few roasts abd they have all been incredible. Their Geisha won a few "roast of the year" awards but has long sold out. Worth a try if mail order is your thing
post #2346 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

do you guys feel like blonding point is kind of overrated as the optimal stopping point? i've been visiting a lot of cafes recently and drinking lots of espresso. i used to judge by color a lot and find a lot of baristas go quite a bit past blonding point, but the bitterness from the latter part of the shot still doesn't really balance out the acidity from the beginning (as in they should pull it even longer past the blonding point)

i don't understand anymore the point of up dosing and then grinding it finer for a shorter shot. seems like if anything if you were going to updose you should pull a longer shot to keep the balance otherwise the acidity is out of whack.

@joshuadowen what do you train your baristas to do? do you guys also do these up dosed ristretto shots?

I see what' you're saying. I have noticed a lot of baristas pulling longer shots, but it is inconsistent really. Depends on the barista and their personal taste I guess. I personally rather have the shot pulled just into blonding and have the bitterness come from part of the beans in the blend. This is partially why I for the most part HATE single origin espresso shots. I think you get a much more well rounded shot which variations of region and roast profile in the same blend. I loved the old Leftist circa 2007 that Gimme was pulling. It has changed since. To piss me off even more sometimes you go in and ask for a shot and they pull you some single origin shot without even asking you, it is like their go-to these days. I went to Gimme yesterday and ordered a shot. The guy puts it down in front of me and says, "I pulled you a single origin from Colombia, I'm liking it much better than Leftist." I almost strangled the motherfucker, but I didn't want to be a dick so I downed the shot of battery acid and had to rinse my mouth out with baking soda in order to neutralize the burn. Pulling a single origin is hard, for sure, but one from fucking South America of all places should be a no no. ffffuuuu.gif
post #2347 of 2943
Can't wait to get these in the Aeropress!

post #2348 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

@joshuadowen what do you train your baristas to do? do you guys also do these up dosed ristretto shots?

 

So we are using Slayer espresso machines, which definitely work a little differently from most of what's out there. The pre-infusion allows for a much finer grind, and we aren't particularly worried about the timing of the pre-infusion stage (beyond the issues of throughput). That said, once the pre-infusion is done and we start actually pulling a shot, you want the shot to pull in around 22 seconds. We train our baristas by having them pull shots onto scales with timers. This helps make sure they are getting the dosing right (water to coffee ratio), as well as the extraction levels (time). We don't consider color to be all that important here, because it will vary from coffee to coffee, and because it's just a way of guessing stuff that we'd rather go ahead and measure. If you can pull the correct volume around that 22 second mark, your extraction should technically be fine. From that point, it's about tasting the espresso and making a judgment call. With the Slayers, we can create a lot of variation by messing around with the parameters of the pre-infusion and the grin size without affecting the actual pull itself.

post #2349 of 2943
sypesyse.jpg

This weekend's roast. Yirga Cheffe Kochere to a medium roast. Pulled right at the start of second crack. This stuff is right in my wheelhouse when it comes to sweetness. More like caramel than chocolate.

Sent from my LG-E970 using Tapatalk
post #2350 of 2943
^it seems a little variable in color. do you sort the coffee or use as is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuadowen View Post

So we are using Slayer espresso machines, which definitely work a little differently from most of what's out there. The pre-infusion allows for a much finer grind, and we aren't particularly worried about the timing of the pre-infusion stage (beyond the issues of throughput). That said, once the pre-infusion is done and we start actually pulling a shot, you want the shot to pull in around 22 seconds. We train our baristas by having them pull shots onto scales with timers. This helps make sure they are getting the dosing right (water to coffee ratio), as well as the extraction levels (time). We don't consider color to be all that important here, because it will vary from coffee to coffee, and because it's just a way of guessing stuff that we'd rather go ahead and measure. If you can pull the correct volume around that 22 second mark, your extraction should technically be fine. From that point, it's about tasting the espresso and making a judgment call. With the Slayers, we can create a lot of variation by messing around with the parameters of the pre-infusion and the grin size without affecting the actual pull itself.

i'm curious as to how you guys reached the 22 second number. is that specific for the slayer machine and the beans you guys use to train the baristas? does it yield a specific brew ratio or extraction yield for you guys? it seems a little arbitrary

i've heard of people disregarding everything and going just by extraction yield and strength. which seems a little... reductionist but i think it brings in a nice objectivity and it kinda makes sense. i feel like color is a good starting point or a good indicator but not necessarily faithful to whether the shot actually tastes good

i've talked to the gimmee baristas quite a bit (at least the ones in ithaca) and they have a chart that specifies volume and flow time and they calibrate with weight, but they mostly do it to taste. which is ok in theory i guess unless your baristas likes their shot differently than you do (some of them really like acidic shots, some of them really like balanced shots). there was a period in the winter/spring two years ago where gimmee's leftist blend was very chocolaty and sweet with lingering acidity in the back and the barista i frequented loved her shots balanced. went like 2, 3 times a day. then the recipe changed again and it wasn't so great.


slayer machines sound so awesome. too bad it's too expensive for home use. the single group one looks quite nice tho
post #2351 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

^it seems a little variable in color. do you sort the coffee or use as is?
i'm curious as to how you guys reached the 22 second number. is that specific for the slayer machine and the beans you guys use to train the baristas? does it yield a specific brew ratio or extraction yield for you guys? it seems a little arbitrary

i've heard of people disregarding everything and going just by extraction yield and strength. which seems a little... reductionist but i think it brings in a nice objectivity and it kinda makes sense. i feel like color is a good starting point or a good indicator but not necessarily faithful to whether the shot actually tastes good

 

 

22 seconds is really just a ballpark. Anything between 20-25 gets you a "proper" extraction. You really just want to make sure you aren't pulling an entire shot in 15 seconds (which would be way under-extracted) or having it take 40 seconds (over-extracted). To your second point, hitting the numbers is really just about identifying a starting point. It lets the barista know that they've got the grind and pre-infusion pretty much dialed in. After that, it is about taste and judgement. Some coffees will taste better with a slightly shorter/longer extraction. Some will require a shorter/longer pre infusion. 

post #2352 of 2943
Irate, looks a little uneven, are you doing that on stovetop? Then again uneven might make for some interesting balance...
post #2353 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

^it seems a little variable in color. do you sort the coffee or use as is?

I use them as-is. I roast ghetto-style with an old air popcorn popper. So because of that you will get some variety in the beans. Medium contains the occasional oily bean, so that is what I shoot for. I cannot stand dark roasted coffee due to the lack of origin flavor, caffeine, and sweetness. So with the variety in roast levels, it all balances out. I'm sure I'll graduate to a grown-up roaster at some point, but spending $300-$500 on a coffee roaster is a luxury I'm not willing commit to at this time.

Oh, and the very light beans typically have the chaff still attached. Some just don't get released during the process. Also, the popper I use runs really hot, so the delay between first and second crack is almost nothing. They go from first, right into second crack. So if I'm not paying attention it will turn out darker than I like.
post #2354 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Irate, looks a little uneven, are you doing that on stovetop? Then again uneven might make for some interesting balance...

This, exactly. Although I think I might pick up a popper that runs at lower temperatures so I can get a longer, more even roast across the batch. There are a few out there I'm looking at.
post #2355 of 2943
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickBOOTH View Post

Irate, looks a little uneven, are you doing that on stovetop? Then again uneven might make for some interesting balance...

Some roasters do this intentionally. Roast a batch at City, another at City+, Full City and Full City+ and then mix them together for best of all worlds.
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