PSA: Chef's Knives

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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Are $100 + chef knives really necessary? I have a $10 stainless steel knife from Walmart that has never failed to cut a piece of food into multiple pieces.
Well, no. But they can definitely improve the utility and the product produced by it if you are interested in it at that level. Plus, there is somethingto be said for qualities beyond utility -- artistry heightens functionality in the same way we, as humans, are not purely receptive to practicality. I use these:

^^I'd get a custom belt so I could wear that around town.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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Are $100 + chef knives really necessary? I have a $10 stainless steel knife from Walmart that has never failed to cut a piece of food into multiple pieces.

Yes.

I'm nowhere near the cook that some are on this forum, but I've still gone through a fair number of cheap knives (handle problems, broken tips, blade dings, etc).

Then, of course, is the speed and efficiency that comes in to play. My time is worth something. Fighting with a crap knife is not worth the stress and additional time for me.

Plus, cheap knives tend to damage my hands. I have a callous on my index finger where it rests on top of the blade. Cheap knives rip that open and it hurts. The edges on cheap knives are not finished nicely and smoothly, thus they rip my hands apart.

http://www.amazon.com/Victorinox-8-I...9541789&sr=8-1 The bare minimum.

I'm reminded of this Mark Bittman column in the NYTimes on how to stock a kitchen for $200. I share his sentiments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/di...kitchen&st=cse

But famous TV chefs use gorgeous name-brand equipment, you might say. And you'd be right. But a.) they get much of that stuff free, the manufacturers hoping that placing it in the hands of a well-known chef will make you think it's essential; b.) they want their equipment to be pretty, so you'll think they're important; and c.) see above: a costly knife is not a talisman and you are not a TV chef.

Finally (and this is crucial), the best chefs may use the best-looking equipment when they are in public view, but when it is time to buy equipment for the people who actually prepare those $200 restaurant meals, they go to a restaurant supply house to shop for the everyday cookware I recommend to people all the time.

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I started with an eight-inch, plastic-handle stainless alloy chef's knife for $10. This is probably the most essential tool in the kitchen. People not only obsess about knives (and write entire articles about them), but you can easily spend over $100 on just one. Yet go into any restaurant kitchen and you will see most of the cooks using this same plastic-handle Dexter-Russell tool. (Go to the wrong store and you'll spend $20 or even $30 on the same knife.)

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Here's the majestic tool he's talking about.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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I'm reminded of this Mark Bittman column in the NYTimes on how to stock a kitchen for $200. I share his sentiments. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/di...kitchen&st=cse
I love the hubris of his anti-snobbery. It has a place for some. You know Kwilk, who works at one of the top tier restaurants in the U.S? He had this to say about what his professional colleagues used:

Almost solely Japanese steel, usually handmade. Most of them are non-brand names and are handmade to order by a few different Japanese companies. All I know is that if you want a knife, talk to our special knife Chef with the hookups and he'll get you something incredible for a few hundred bucks.

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Link: http://www.styleforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=190 This certainly does imply that the chefs are buying their knives, and at "a few hundred bucks" that is not exactly restaurant-supply-house level. I'd like to hear his take on what pros use at home. ~H

If I were a professional chef my interest in knives would gravitate towards high end too. But to assume that a) his preference applies across the restaurant industry and b) that it affects the output of the dishes is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention this thread was started with the purpose of finding knives for cooking at home. To pretend that anybody here needs a $200 knife to cut with in order to maintain some quality control of their dicing is absurd. This is no different than high school kids thinking $200 shoes are needed to be good at basketball. It's not like Michael Jordan's skills were affected if he didn't have $200 sneakers. If you like the expensive knives or shoes for their design and want to support that, go ahead. But it's not affecting your ability to cut carrots at all. Knives that are sharp and that fit your hand are not exclusive to the +$200 price point.

Here's the explanation Alton Brown gave on the "American Slicer" episode of Good Eats:

So, why would a person with any brains at all spend a hundred dollars or more on one knife, when you can clearly have an entire set of viciously sharp Kutzus for the price of a pizza dinner? I’ll show you. [takes one of the Kutzu knives and places it under a video microscope] Let’s take a look at that Kutzu edge. It is essentially a hacksaw. The steel is so lousy that even if it could take a real edge, which it can’t, it wouldn’t be able to keep it for long. So once these serrations are gone, this tool will become useless. Not that it’s worth that much to begin with. If you’ll notice, Chef Wolfgar [the guy hawkin' cheap knives on a mock-infomercial] didn’t chop up an onion or julienne a carrot. That’s because bad design gives you no heft, no balance, and no angle of attack. Of course, if you ever need to hack a shoe in half, you’ll know what to reach for. Now let’s take a look at a real knife. Notice that the blade tapers from the spine to the edge, and that there’s a transition to another angle; a secondary belly, and the narrower that angle, the better the cut. Of course, to get this kind of angle requires the right kind of steel. And to understand steel, you’ve got to understand [metallurgy... Here he goes off and describes the various sorts of alloys used and why you'd prefer various ones in different situations.]

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The whole transcript is here.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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If I were a professional chef my interest in knives would gravitate towards high end too. But to assume that a) his preference applies across the restaurant industry and b) that it affects the output of the dishes is pretty ridiculous. Not to mention this thread was started with the purpose of finding knives for cooking at home. To pretend that anybody here needs a $200 knife to cut with in order to maintain some quality control of their dicing is absurd. This is no different than high school kids thinking $200 shoes are needed to be good at basketball. It's not like Michael Jordan's skills were affected if he didn't have $200 sneakers. If you like the expensive knives or shoes for their design and want to support that, go ahead. But it's not affecting your ability to cut carrots at all. Knives that are sharp and that fit your hand are not exclusive to the +$200 price point.

There is so much truth in this post. In fact I would say it's probably better to start off on a cheap knife before shelling out a few hundred for a nice one as long as it meets the basic criteria of a decent knife.

Meh.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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But to assume that a) his preference applies across the restaurant industry and b) that it affects the output of the dishes is pretty ridiculous.
Well, that snippet you quoted said that if you "go into any restaurant kitchen and you will see most of the cooks using this same plastic-handle Dexter-Russell" so it doesn't seem "pretty ridiculous" for me to "assume that his preference applies across the restaurant industry" because that's exactly what he said in the part of his article that you quoted for us. As for the output of the dishes, aspects of Japanese cuisine revolve around the knifework that went into the dish, and it's true for any cuisine that the consistency of preparation of the ingredients is a factor in the quality of the dishes. So as knifework is important at both a high and a low level, it's hardly "pretty ridiculous" to claim it has no effect.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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Not to mention this thread was started with the purpose of finding knives for cooking at home. To pretend that anybody here needs a $200 knife to cut with in order to maintain some quality control of their dicing is absurd. This is no different than high school kids thinking $200 shoes are needed to be good at basketball. It's not like Michael Jordan's skills were affected if he didn't have $200 sneakers. If you like the expensive knives or shoes for their design and want to support that, go ahead. But it's not affecting your ability to cut carrots at all. Knives that are sharp and that fit your hand are not exclusive to the +$200 price point.
Of course. Re the purpose of the thread, I think it was the article you cited that brought up professional kitchens, and anyway I was responding to your post, asking if "$100 + chef knives really necessary? I have a $10 stainless steel knife from Walmart that has never failed to cut a piece of food into multiple pieces," and I replied that they were not [necessary], but that at a high level they are of a higher utility and do improve the quality of the product. I phrased it that way because if the concern is merely to "cut a piece of food into multiple pieces" then no, it doesn't matter. Nobody here, as you say, needs a $200 knife in order to maintain some quality control, but if your skills match the occasion, a better knife will help you maintain not only some, but a very high degree of quality control. There are people at that lvel on SF, like Manton, who has taken multi-week very serious culinary training only to enhance his ability as a home cook. If your game is at a higher level then yes it will make a difference but is still certainly not necessary -- the only necessary component is the skill. ~ H

Another point I'll make is that while a quality knife is crucial, I do tend to use a lot of restaurant supply cookware.

I own and have used a fair number of good consumer brands (like All Clad), but I don't find much difference in efficiency, speed, durability, etc between the $$$ consumer stuff and the $ restaurant supply cookware.

I would say that after a certain price point and/or level of quality of the knife, the issue become a moot point. I been using a Dexter Russell chinese cleaver for as long as I can remember. I use it for almost all my cutting and chopping needs. Recently I purchased some fantastic natural waterstones on ebay and have made this knife razor sharp. You can find the stainless steel version for about $30 bucks. I also been using a cheap chef's knife that probably cost less than $10 since it came in a set with some other knives that I won at some school raffle years ago. I also used the waterstones to put a screaming edge on it. I cut through carrots, potatoes, tomatoes, etc with no problems whatsoever.

A few months ago, I went for a Tojiro DP F-808. When I am doing more precision work, I use this knife. There is definitely a different feel to this knife but IMHO, I don't think it's worth it for the regular home chef. I enjoy cooking and always find ways to improve my knife skills. I think the issue here is more about knife skills and how to keep your knives sharp more then the steel types, brands, etc. Most home cooks probably don't sharpen knives with a waterstone or spend good time to make their knives razor sharp. Some people I seen even use a glass cutting board.

Basically my point is this. The expensive knives are definitely better but no matter know much the knife cost, the knife itself will never make someone have better knife skills or better cook for that matter. I have seen people get expensive kitchen gear but they can't cook for the life of them.

The victornox chef knife is definitely the best bang for the buck. I don't have it but I have a boning knife from them. They will definitely not win any awards in the looks department, in fact I think they they are down right ugly but when it comes down to utility, you will be hard pressed to find a better knife at it's price point or perhaps even double that. Since we are speaking about knives, let me say how much I hate those knife sets. (The ones with the knife block). Most of those knives are useless. Some of them don't even come with a chef's knife... WTF! I think person really only needs 2-3 knives. A chef's knife or in my case, a chinese cleaver, a utility knife and a paring knife.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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I'm reminded of this Mark Bittman column in the NYTimes on how to stock a kitchen for $200. I share his sentiments. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/di...kitchen&st=cse
haha I'm extremely interested to hear what "professional" kitchens he's been in. What ******* celeb chefs is he talking about? If I think of all the chef shows I see on tv; ramsay et al... then he's dead wrong. They use on TV what they use in their kitchens. As for the knives, he's also dead wrong. He should also keep in mind that the dexter-russells are used, but they're sharpened every 4-7 days and they go through them like you wouldn't believe. I will also tell you that I don't think I've seen too many of those in any high end kitchens. This guy is beyond clueless. I can also guarantee you that with a lesser knife, you'll be applying too much force and your product will likely end up being quite uneven. Although, if you cannot notice that then you are quite right that a slightly better knife (and you can get a very good knife like a Wustoff 10" for under $100) wouldn't improve your cooking. With a ****** knife I'm slower and less precise. My knife skills are quite a bit better than any home cook's and even I can notice some fatigue and shoddier work after a while (like if I cook at a friend's place who has some bad stuff). As for cookery, I think I can abide by cheaper stuff much easier provided that I have a decent heat source. As long as pans distribute heat somewhat evenly I don't fuss too much. Pro kitchens aren't decked out in copper.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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Are $100 + chef knives really necessary? I have a $10 stainless steel knife from Walmart that has never failed to cut a piece of food into multiple pieces.
I don't think anyone besides yourself was making that argument but there is a certain baseline and I don't think the $10 stainless steel knife meets it. Discounting looks and comfort, there are still certain attributes a chef's knife needs to have to be considered decent: It needs to take a good edge, it needs to keep this edge for a reasonable amount of time, it needs to provide good stain resistance since we are talking about a stainless steel knife and you should be able to maintain the edge at home. You used to be able to get a decent high carbon non-stain resistant knife for $10 but not stainless. The $30 8" Victorinox linked by Helix is the least expensive stainless steel knife I would recommend.

Originally Posted by StephenHero

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I'm reminded of this Mark Bittman column in the NYTimes on how to stock a kitchen for $200. I share his sentiments. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/di...kitchen&st=cse
Bitty is not what one would call a knife expert and he is not really discovering the New World here. Most restaurant line cooks, especially the ones in working in non-michelin stared restaurants, use whatever crap is on sale or what they are supplied with by the owner, be that knives or pans. Why should a home cook use the cheapest crappy tools possible? A home cook does not cook in the same way, for the same reasons, or for the same number of people why should he use the same tools?