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SF Fantasy Baseball League 2009 - Page 84

post #1246 of 1312
Sorry, I didn't see you "quit". Guess I'm back in. Hopefully the rest of us will enjoy the rest of the year without your crap.
post #1247 of 1312
For anyone out there who isn't a seasoned fantasy sports player and doesn't understand what Steve did wrong: A: Trades don't just happen at random. Usually, in my case, I go back and forth with another team for a while before we reach an agreement. In the case of my latest trade, we offered players back and forth twice for three or four days before we reached a suitable agreement to both of us. Seeing as both teams have agreed to trade the players mentioned and know exactly who they are giving up and who they are getting, unless it is so obviously one sided as to be suspicious, (see collusion) the trade should stand. Outsiders should feel free to voice your opinion on the trade, but attempting to block it at that point is done out of selfishness. The blocking team feels that if the trade goes through, it will hurt them in the rankings. They are not concerned out of "fairness" to either of the teams involved, they are concerned with themselves and the effect on THEIR team. B: He trumpeted on and on about it not being a "fair trade". And my response was "so what"? Even though the best trades add to each team (as I believe was the case with my trade) it's always possible that one team comes out better than the other (in fact, we all tend to try for this anyway). This is not an abomination. It is not unfair. It is an outcome to be expected in any game that features human people playing against other human people (see also Major League Baseball). The only "unfair trades" are trades of collusion, where a team out of contention contacts another team IN contention to unload all his desirable players for next to nothing in return, or a team in contention taking advantage of someone who no longer cares about their team. This can rapidly destroy competition, and this is the reason why the "Trade Veto" option exists. Not for attempting to ensure that all the other teams in the league are being run to your approval. Not to punish people for making a trade to better themselves while you sat on your hands until you saw a trade you wish you could have made, but didn't. "Trade fairness" is the number one red-herring thrown out by people who are looking out for their self-interests by trying to screw with your team. This is a bad thing because you don't have to do anything but click a button to invalidate what is probably in many cases, a lengthy process of trade proposal/rejection/counteroffer/rejection/counteroffer...etc. You are not trying to make your team better, but to hold everyone who is working to be better back. The sportsmanlike way to win a contest is to try and be better than your opponent, not to try and trip him when you see the opportunity. As far as "fairness" is concerned, no trades should be vetoed except for obvious cases of collusion between teams in contention and teams who have ceased to care. Anyone can trade for/away anyone they thing will make their team better/don't think they need. The arbitration happens between the two teams involved in the bargaining process. Then, they have to live with the consequences of their decisions. THAT is fair. This is the way SF fantasy sports have been played for the last FOUR YEARS without incident until Steve decided he didn't have to play that way anymore. C: Say, for the sake of argument, trades need to be fair and veto power is necessary. (which they do not, and in most cases is not) How does it make sense that the other ten teams, with an obvious vested interest, are the arbiters? That'd be like one MLB manager voting down a trade between two other teams in his division. Vetoing a trade is an inherently unfair action, because everyone who would veto it is competing directly against the person who's transaction they are meddling in. My team only needs one manager. Me. If I make good trades for my team, I will improve it without sacrificing anything I'll miss. Likewise for everyone else. That's the point of trading, and is a SKILL that good managers possess . That is what makes trading so interesting in fantasy sports and in real life. There are no guarantees about player performance, regardless of past statistics. If I am in contention and want to trade Albert Pujols for Hank Blalock - I am doing so for a reason. Who out there is impartial enough, wise enough, or prescient enough to know better than me what I want to do with my team? Not Steve. Nobody can tell me that my reasons aren't "good enough" to believe that my hypothetical Blalock isn't going to explode statistically and be more fantasy relevant from here on out than Pujols. Why not? Because you don't know for sure that I am wrong! And yet, other teams, with only selfish motivations, and nothing vested one way or another in the actual transaction - get to tell me that I can or can't trade someone I have for someone I want? That's just an example - but were I to do so, that would be MY decision, MY risk to take, and likely my downfall or success. Who the hell are you to tell me that my gut feeling, statistical analysis, voodoo, or whatever it is I use to manage my team doesn't meet your approval? This is why the greatest "fairness" in trading, is to let it happen. D: Trade veto is clearly not used for what Steve was attempting to use it for. He voted to veto my trade, which by all accounts there was nothing wrong with, and then after the fact, came out gloating about his cleverness in sticking it to me and called for others to do the same. Luckily for me, most of the other people in the league can see through that level of inexcusable douchebaggery and unsportsmanlike conduct, but there are those of you out there that might be swayed by his talk of trades not being "fair" and get into the bad habit of vetoing trades you don't agree with. I am here to let you know that its a dickhead move, and people of any merit will decide not to play with you. It would be a different story (I suppose) if we had agreed to or had any history of people's trades being voted down arbitrarily - which is not the case. But at that point, why even bother making trades? If you have to tread on eggshells to trade away exactly the same level of talent that you receive - you might as well just keep the players you have. I expected more from Steve, especially since he's been playing this game as long as he has. And as I've pointed out, we've played together for four years without any kind of this underhanded shit being pulled. Maybe he's done it the whole time and just never copped to it until now. Who knows? I also expected that he'd apologize for trying to knife people in the back in order to better himself when it was discovered he was doing so. Well.. maybe I didn't expect that but I would have liked it, back when I brought it up. I also did NOT expect him to sit there and justify his unsportsmanlike conduct, try and obfuscate the issue, and place the blame on me - though I guess I should have. He's never to blame for anything, and he never does anything wrong. THAT is what Steve did wrong, and why it's a big deal. He knows it, despite all his protestations and excuses. He's just too stubborn (or genuinely an asshole) to admit he tried to bend or violate the unspoken, and yet generally agreed to rules of conduct for his own gain and got caught. Maybe he's truly in so much delusion that he doesn't think he did anything wrong - but then my question remains, if that's really the style of play he's "familiar with" - why has it happened exactly one time in four years, NOW, when he's close to being knocked out of contention due to his own mistakes and poor trades (which mysteriously, nobody vetoed), and one of the teams involved in the trade (Carpenterrorists) is one of the teams he's battling directly against for one of the last few playoff spots and the other team is mine? And no, Steve, I don't want to hear your excuses. This post is an informative one aimed at the people here who may not have the experience some of us do and are wondering what the hell just happened. Hopefully it will make someone out there a better fantasy sports player and a better sportsman overall. Not everyone is interested in taking advantage of people. You just provided a very nice example of the type of behavior that is generally not accepted in most serious fantasy leagues outside of whatever universe you live in.
post #1248 of 1312
And a pre-emptive: But hopefully someone who doesn't "get it" will read my post and understand. Everyone else is free to ignore my post at their own leisure.
post #1249 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
For anyone out there who isn't a seasoned fantasy sports player and doesn't understand what Steve did wrong:

A: Trades don't just happen at random. Usually, in my case, I go back and forth with another team for a while before we reach an agreement. In the case of my latest trade, we offered players back and forth twice for three or four days before we reached a suitable agreement to both of us. Seeing as both teams have agreed to trade the players mentioned and know exactly who they are giving up and who they are getting, unless it is so obviously one sided as to be suspicious, (see collusion) the trade should stand. Outsiders should feel free to voice your opinion on the trade, but attempting to block it at that point is done out of selfishness. The blocking team feels that if the trade goes through, it will hurt them in the rankings. They are not concerned out of "fairness" to either of the teams involved, they are concerned with themselves and the effect on THEIR team.

B: He trumpeted on and on about it not being a "fair trade". And my response was "so what"? Even though the best trades add to each team (as I believe was the case with my trade) it's always possible that one team comes out better than the other (in fact, we all tend to try for this anyway). This is not an abomination. It is not unfair. It is an outcome to be expected in any game that features human people playing against other human people (see also Major League Baseball). The only "unfair trades" are trades of collusion, where a team out of contention contacts another team IN contention to unload all his desirable players for next to nothing in return, or a team in contention taking advantage of someone who no longer cares about their team. This can rapidly destroy competition, and this is the reason why the "Trade Veto" option exists. Not for attempting to ensure that all the other teams in the league are being run to your approval. Not to punish people for making a trade to better themselves while you sat on your hands until you saw a trade you wish you could have made, but didn't. "Trade fairness" is the number one red-herring thrown out by people who are looking out for their self-interests by trying to screw with your team. This is a bad thing because you don't have to do anything but click a button to invalidate what is probably in many cases, a lengthy process of trade proposal/rejection/counteroffer/rejection/counteroffer...etc. You are not trying to make your team better, but to hold everyone who is working to be better back. The sportsmanlike way to win a contest is to try and be better than your opponent, not to try and trip him when you see the opportunity.

As far as "fairness" is concerned, no trades should be vetoed except for obvious cases of collusion between teams in contention and teams who have ceased to care. Anyone can trade for/away anyone they thing will make their team better/don't think they need. The arbitration happens between the two teams involved in the bargaining process. Then, they have to live with the consequences of their decisions. THAT is fair. This is the way SF fantasy sports have been played for the last FOUR YEARS without incident until Steve decided he didn't have to play that way anymore.

C: Say, for the sake of argument, trades need to be fair and veto power is necessary. (which they do not, and in most cases is not) How does it make sense that the other ten teams, with an obvious vested interest, are the arbiters? That'd be like one MLB manager voting down a trade between two other teams in his division. Vetoing a trade is an inherently unfair action, because everyone who would veto it is competing directly against the person who's transaction they are meddling in. My team only needs one manager. Me. If I make good trades for my team, I will improve it without sacrificing anything I'll miss. Likewise for everyone else. That's the point of trading, and is a SKILL that good managers possess . That is what makes trading so interesting in fantasy sports and in real life. There are no guarantees about player performance, regardless of past statistics. If I am in contention and want to trade Albert Pujols for Hank Blalock - I am doing so for a reason. Who out there is impartial enough, wise enough, or prescient enough to know better than me what I want to do with my team? Not Steve.

Nobody can tell me that my reasons aren't "good enough" to believe that my hypothetical Blalock isn't going to explode statistically and be more fantasy relevant from here on out than Pujols. That's just an example - but that would be MY decision, MY risk to take, and likely my downfall. Who the hell are you to tell me that my gut feeling, statistical analysis, voodoo, or whatever it is I use to manage my team doesn't meet your approval?

D: Trade veto is clearly not used for what Steve was attempting to use it for. He voted to veto my trade, which by all accounts there was nothing wrong with, and then after the fact came out gloating about his cleverness in sticking it to me and called for others to do the same. Luckily for me, most of the other people in the league can see through that level of inexcusable douchebaggery and unsportsmanlike conduct, but there are those of you out there that might be swayed by his talk of trades not being "fair" and get into the bad habit of vetoing trades you don't agree with. I am here to let you know that its a dickhead move, and people of any merit will decide not to play with you. It would be a different story (I suppose) if we had agreed to or had any history of people's trades being voted down arbitrarily - which is not the case. But at that point, why even bother making trades? If you have to tread on eggshells to trade away exactly the same level of talent that you receive - you might as well just keep the players you have. I expected more from Steve, especially since he's been playing this game as long as he has. And as I've pointed out, we've played together for four years without any kind of this underhanded shit being pulled. Maybe he's done it the whole time and just never copped to it until now. Who knows? I also expected that he'd apologize for trying to knife people in the back in order to better himself when it was discovered he was doing so. Well.. maybe I didn't expect that. I did NOT expect him to sit there and justify his unsportsmanlike conduct, though I guess I should have. He's never to blame for anything, and he never does anything wrong.

THAT is what Steve did wrong, and why it's a big deal. He knows it, despite all his protestations and excuses. He's just too stubborn (or genuinely an asshole) to admit he tried to bend or violate the unspoken, and yet generally agreed to rules of conduct for his own gain and got caught. Maybe he's truly in so much delusion that he doesn't think he did anything wrong - but then my question remains, if that's really the style of play he's "familiar with" - why has it happened exactly one time in four years, NOW, when he's close to being knocked out of contention due to his own mistakes and poor trades (which mysteriously, nobody vetoed), and one of the teams involved in the trade (Carpenterrorists) is one of the teams he's battling directly against for one of the last few playoff spots and the other team is mine?

And no, Steve, I don't want to hear your excuses. This post is an informative one aimed at the people here who may not have the experience some of us do and are wondering what the hell just happened. Hopefully it will make someone out there a better fantasy sports player and a better sportsman overall. Not everyone is interested in taking advantage of people. You just provided a very nice example of the type of behavior that is generally not accepted in most serious fantasy leagues outside of whatever universe you live in.

I could deal with this point by point but your behavior speaks for itself. A grown man has just thrown the most incredible Internet tantrum I've ever seen in my life over a fucking baseball game.

I'm not apologizing because I didn't do anything worth apologizing about.

You're an asshole to play Fantasy Sports with. You always have been and you always will be.

I'm assuming something you can do as commissioner is the easiest way to get rid of my team?
post #1250 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
I'm not apologizing because I didn't do anything worth apologizing about.
Surprise, surprise! I'm sure the gallery is shocked by the stunning admission of your innocence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
You're an asshole to play Fantasy Sports with. You always have been and you always will be.
Funny, because I don't hear anyone else complaining. To the best of my knowledge, the only person I've been an asshole to is you, because you started out being an asshole to me. That's how I roll. I've still never done something so ludicrous as to attempt to vote on vetoing one of your trades, or drum up public support to do so. I don't recall every having any problems with anyone but you, therefore I must have been a classy and amicable sportsman to everyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
I'm assuming something you can do as commissioner is the easiest way to get rid of my team?
I'm sure that whoever the commissioner is, they MIGHT be able to lock your team. I don't remember. I know they can't delete it. I'd just bench all your players, assuming that you want to maintain the charade of your interest in "fairness".
post #1251 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
Surprise, surprise! I'm sure the gallery is shocked by the stunning admission of your innocence.



Funny, because I don't hear anyone else complaining.


You're on ignore.

Just take me out of the league.
post #1252 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
You're on ignore.

This is excellent. I am unable to ignore HIM because he's a moderator, but because he's a moderator, he can ignore ME? Seems about right for Steve's version of "fairness".

He is officially one of the mods of THIS sub-forum too. I like how he can just tune out the dissidents whenever he feels like it.

Way to dodge responsibility.

Is calling out a mod for being a douchy a-hole in a social situation somewhere else considered a bannable offense? Maybe I should watch my step or receive banhammer retribution.

That seems suitably petty. It's probably coming any moment now...
post #1253 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Just take me out of the league.
Would if I could. But you are talking to the wrong guy. I don't think the commissioner could "delete" your team even if he wanted to. You are going to have to bench your players if you don't want to play. If you don't want to play fair, be prepared to hear about it. This is what real life is like. Consequences. Action and reaction. Etc. Oh, wait. I'm being ignored... Someone else quote me. Assuming that Steve really wants out and this isn't just some sort of posturing.
post #1254 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
Surprise, surprise! I'm sure the gallery is shocked by the stunning admission of your innocence.



Funny, because I don't hear anyone else complaining. To the best of my knowledge, the only person I've been an asshole to is you, because you started out being an asshole to me. That's how I roll. I've still never done something so ludicrous as to attempt to vote on vetoing one of your trades, or drum up public support to do so. I don't recall every having any problems with anyone but you, therefore I must have been a classy and amicable sportsman to everyone else.



I'm sure that whoever the commissioner is, they MIGHT be able to lock your team. I don't remember. I know they can't delete it. I'd just bench all your players, assuming that you want to maintain the charade of your interest in "fairness".

The thing that's funny is way back when I don't think I was being an asshole to you. You asked for opinions on one of your teams in a thread (could have been this very thread), and you got pissed when I rendered it. Then I gave you shit about my rating vs. your rating and I rubbed you the wrong way. OK, understandable. And I banned you for three days. Which was VERY unacceptable on my part and I apologized for profusely. But you have a hairpin trigger, at least towards me. I've apologized that time and many others forward trying to keep things civil.

You never have. You've insulted me as many times and in as many ways as you can think of. If that's how you roll I'd hate to be you.

AND ONE LAST TIME on this one...I may be obnoxious. You may be a better fantasy player than I am (demonstrated repeatedly so far), I am NOT A MORON. If I were trying to be sneaky about derailing your trade I'd have sent people private messages. You have chosen to take extreme and complete umbrage.

I DID NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM WANT TO CHEAT YOU OUT OF ANYTHING. If you think that, I apologize.

Looking at the standings, I figured CT had a lock on 5th, and I had a 50/50 chance at 6th, and even a playoff spot.

I've bantered back and forth with you all season to try and keep things light. That seems impossible with you.

I'm gonna sleep on benching my guys because, like you, I have spent a lot of time working on my team all year. If you go to the football site, I've withdrawn.
post #1255 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
I'm gonna sleep on benching my guys because, like you, I have spent a lot of time working on my team all year. If you go to the football site, I've withdrawn.
If you play your players tomorrow, I am going to continue on with my plan to bench all my players and throw the next four weeks out the window. I really don't want to have anything to do with you anymore. I am not kidding when I say I'd rather lose than play with someone like you. And YOU KNOW how much I love winning. Think about that. Either way, your call. Far be it from me to tell you what to do with your team.
post #1256 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
The thing that's funny is way back when I don't think I was being an asshole to you. You asked for opinions on one of your teams in a thread (could have been this very thread), and you got pissed when I rendered it.
I love how, despite me disproving this LAST year when we had a fight, you still cling to it as the "reason" you started giving me shit. ( I never asked for anyone's opinion or input, least of all yours). I posted my draft results, sure, but it was not to draw out criticism for my fantasy team, or anything else. I posted it because other people were curious as to who I drafted. I didn't want, need, or care for your criticisms. You took the opportunity to drop snide remarks and to lay the "Legend of Steve" on me. You are a fantasy GOD, remember? You win your fantasy leagues ALL THE TIME. That was the start of it. I just had to see for myself if you were full of shit or not. Consider my opinion fully formed. Shit, you even APOLOGIZED to me for your reaction in that thread a while ago. Obviously you meant it so much that you completely forgot about it. Thats why things have been civil for a while. Remember our truce? I thought you might be a halfway decent guy. And yet you always try and prove me wrong, just so you can win at something. Also: Thought I was on ignore? Another deception? Wouldn't just addressing things head on and honestly be much less mentally taxing? I know you MUST be getting tired of being outclassed by me all the time. BTW, the three day banning had nothing to do with that. I made an ill-advised comment about doing something lewd to your underage daughter half in jest, that I didn't even know you had. I think I figured someone as... weathered... as you wouldn't have any young daughters. I remember specifically staying away from "yo mama" jokes because I thought she might have passed and it would be extra insensitive of me. You decided to take it ultra personally anyways and ban me though, when it turned out that I'd guessed wrong. Which was fine, but your rant was pretty classic.
post #1257 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
This is excellent. I am unable to ignore HIM because he's a moderator, but because he's a moderator, he can ignore ME? Seems about right for Steve's version of "fairness".

He is officially one of the mods of THIS sub-forum too. I like how he can just tune out the dissidents whenever he feels like it.

Way to dodge responsibility.

Is calling out a mod for being a douchy a-hole in a social situation somewhere else considered a bannable offense? Maybe I should watch my step or receive banhammer retribution.

That seems suitably petty. It's probably coming any moment now...

As I said above, I did it once, and even though given what you said at the time was definitely worth a time-out, I realized that you didn't know all the particulars of the situation. We spoke privately and publicly that I had overeacted. But apologies aren't good enough for you, are they Slim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
Would if I could. But you are talking to the wrong guy. I don't think the commissioner could "delete" your team even if he wanted to. You are going to have to bench your players if you don't want to play. If you don't want to play fair, be prepared to hear about it. This is what real life is like. Consequences. Action and reaction. Etc.

Oh, wait. I'm being ignored... Someone else quote me. Assuming that Steve really wants out and this isn't just some sort of posturing.

Ummm...a bit sheepish here...I couldn't figure out how to do it. You're the only person I've ever put on ignore and it was a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
If you play your players tomorrow, I am going to continue on with my plan to bench all my players and throw the next four weeks. I really don't want to have anything to do with you anymore. I am not kidding when I say I'd rather lose than play with someone like you. And YOU KNOW how much I love winning. Think about that.

Either way, your call. Far be it from me to tell you what to do with your team.

I am thinking of that. Reminds me of my best grade school pal, Really down for the sniffled and the taking the ball home routine.

I'll decide in the morning. I don't understand why the trade just can't go through and play on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo Slim View Post
I love how, despite me disproving this LAST year when we had a fight, you still cling to it as the "reason" you started giving me shit. ( I never asked for anyone's opinion or input, least of all yours). I posted my draft results, sure, but it was not to draw out criticism for my fantasy team, or anything else. I posted it because other people were curious as to who I drafted. I didn't want, need, or care for your criticisms. You took the opportunity to drop snide remarks and to lay the "Legend of Steve" on me. You are a fantasy GOD, remember? You win your fantasy leagues ALL THE TIME. That was the start of it. I just had to see for myself if you were full of shit or not. Consider my opinion fully formed.

Shit, you even APOLOGIZED to me for your reaction in that thread a while ago. Obviously you meant it so much that you completely forgot about it. Thats why things have been civil for a while. Remember our truce? I thought you might be a halfway decent guy. And yet you always try and prove me wrong, just so you can win at something.


Also: Thought I was on ignore? Another deception? Wouldn't just addressing things head on and honestly be much less mentally taxing? I know you MUST be getting tired of being outclassed by me all the time.

OK, I forget things. I could've posted comments which you didn't ask for. But I find that unlikely. You ask for everyone else's and there was no bad blood between us yet. Everyone posts their drafts and we all kick 'em around. I do remember and took responsibility for the fantasy Godness thing.
post #1258 of 1312
Jason Marquis, by the way, has pitched 37 innings, with 3 wins, 16 k's, has a 1.46 ERA, and a 0.89 WHIP since you and your clever player evaluation skills mocked me for acquiring him a month ago.

Brian Bannister, whom you managed to drop pretty quickly after defending him pretty vehemently:
31 IP, 1 W, 19 K's, 3.45 ERA, and a 1.37 WHIP.\t\t

Just pointing out that you are very poor at judging the "value" of players. Yet another reason that vetoing for "fairness" doesn't make any sense. You wouldn't know fair if it bit you.
post #1259 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
I don't understand why the trade just can't go through and play on.

Because I find your actions to be so goddamn distasteful and unsportsmanlike that I don't want to play with you anymore. How hard is that to understand? You've shown yourself to be a petty, vile, underhanded fantasy player of the lowest caliber, willing to bend the system to fit your own twisted morality and to take advantage of and misuse a league tool for your own benefit - and then to encourage others to help you do so. And I don't want to be reminded of how much I think I want to verbally smack the shit out of you for being such a dirty scumbag every time I am forced to deal with you.

Say what you want about me, I give you a lot of shit, but I NEVER CHEATED. That's what trying to veto someone else's trade to hold them back, and asking others to help you is called. It's cheating, against the entire spirit of sportsmanship, counter to the game, and you REALLY don't seem sorry at all. You purposefully tried to sabotage a perfectly acceptable trade so that nobody around you would get "better" as you were struggling. You can deny it all you want, but nothing else makes any sense. We don't veto trades in this league, we don't ask other people to veto trades in this league. You KNOW that. Just because we never printed off a list of do's and don'ts for the new people, doesn't mean you are free to take advantage of the situation. Although, evidently you think you are.

You keep feeding me this BS about how "all your other leagues do it". So what? We've never done it here. Not once since you've started. Did that ever cross your mind? We don't play that bush league shit here. Maybe in your other leagues, trying to sabotage the other teams and make the managers waste their time is acceptable. We have never played that way, and as long as I'm part of the league, we never will. You took this game somewhere you never should have gone, and as far as I can tell, the only reason you did it was to try and save your own ass.
post #1260 of 1312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
You never have. You've insulted me as many times and in as many ways as you can think of.
Not possible. I haven't been around long enough to insult you in as many ways as I can think of. I have way more insults than you give me credit for. But given the proper motivation, and a long enough period of time, you MIGHT eventually hear them all. I'll let you know when we are getting close.
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