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What do you think is the coolest car ever? - Page 5

post #61 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
Yeah…idiots.

Jon.

Well, I love the 8-series. But let's call a spade a spade here: people who are enthusiasts for a design such as the 8 series that is really iconic of the 90's BMW design are probably not going to be very quick to accept the Bangle designs.

Don't get me wrong, I am not crazy about all of Bangle's designs. However, hardcore Beemer/BWWCCA people in the category that you are describing usually are not very open minded to innovative design. They cling to the tride and true and want slight upgrades and variations. A lot of features in his car are really ahead of their time and therefore have met with mixed reviews (like the dial thingy in the 745).

Bangle is hated because his designs are radical and different. People who like the old designs will have to buy a used car *gasp* and take care of it.
post #62 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTGuy
You're nuts Jon. That car looks pretty cool- I think you're letting your anti-Bangle venom cloud your judgment.
Wow, I'm going to have to agree with Jon on a car thing. This Bangle concept manages to simultaneously expose the lack of vision inherent in "retrofuturism" and showcase Bangle's singular combination of excellent technique and nonexistent talent. Somehow in that combination it manages to look much more Fascist than the previous retrofuturistic cars inspired by excellent Nazi era designs, J Mays' Audi Avus concept, the Mays/Thomas VW Concept One/New Beetle, and Freeman Thomas's Audi TT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTGuy
I strongly disliked a lot of Bangle's designs when they first came out, but many of them are starting to grow on me.
Indeed, like a bottle of fine wine. That's been poured into a mug and left outside all summer.
post #63 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTGuy
Well, I love the 8-series. But let's call a spade a spade here: people who are enthusiasts for a design such as the 8 series that is really iconic of the 90's BMW design are probably not going to be very quick to accept the Bangle designs. Don't get me wrong, I am not crazy about all of Bangle's designs. However, hardcore Beemer/BWWCCA people in the category that you are describing usually are not very open minded to innovative design. They cling to the tride and true and want slight upgrades and variations. A lot of features in his car are really ahead of their time and therefore have met with mixed reviews (like the dial thingy in the 745). Bangle is hated because his designs are radical and different. People who like the old designs will have to buy a used car *gasp* and take care of it.
Lets separate this into two: 1) My personal view 2) The general view of most die-hard BMW fans 1) Lets start out with my personal view: Bangle’s designs are not good not ‘because his designs are radical and different’, but because they are poorly executed. Case in point, the Bangle Butt: 2003 BMW 745i: 2007 Mercedes S550: Both are based on the same two-tier trunk design principle, but Mercedes pulls it off without looking awkward. Whereas the 7-Series looks like the top of the trunk came from another car, the top of the S-Classes’ trunk looks like it belongs there, its harmonious with the rest of the car. Also, I am not against change, nay I welcome a new design, a change towards the future, IF it is good looking and makes sense. Take the Audi shield grill for example. It harks back to an earlier time, to the time of the Silver Arrows, but at the same time looks good, and works with the rest of the car. Sure, some people (Audi fans) were a bit offset by the new design, but none of them got to the hate level that Bangle instills in people. Why? Because they made the design work, it wasn’t just making something for the sake of making it, for the sake of screaming ‘look at me!’; it wasn’t anti-designed to look like it was overly-designed. Another example is the current batch of Ferrari’s; sure they are more angled than the beautiful, curvaceous shapes that were found in the 90’s (575, 360, etc…), but they are beautiful nonetheless, because again they are well executed. There is purpose there, there is thought, and neither is there just to provoke. As well, I never stated that I completely dislike all of Bangles designs. I think that the Z4 is pretty well executed. Its proportions, to my eyes work better than those of the Z3 it replaced. And the new Z4 coupe is truly inspired, especially the homage to the classic British sports-coupe design (think E-Type). I also think that the front of the new 3-series (E92) coupe is a very good step forward from the previous gen (E46). The interior (like all the new interiors, except for the Z4) is utter crap, and is designed to be the ultimate ‘eh’ machine. Also, BMW noticed that the designs were too extreme and softened up the 7-series, just look at a 745i vs. a 750i : 745i: 750i: Regarding the iDrive, I’ll post another post, since I’ll stick mostly to design and not electronics in this post. In addition: I test drove a 2006 325i when I was car shopping, and even though the BMW is RWD and has the engine behind the front wheels AND has more horse (albeit less torque than the A4), and because of this drives and handles a lot better than my A4, I still choose the Audi because: I didn’t feel I was getting ripped off with the quality of the interior, the 325 felt almost like BMW by Rubbermaid, it costs quite a bit less for a comparable car (pass-through seats are NOT standard in the 325, what kind of crap is that?), and I can look at the outside of my car everyday without feeling a little bit disgusted at the way it looks, which is what I would have felt if I had bought the BMW. 2) You can’t blame them (die-hard BMW fans) from being more than upset regarding the sudden and abrupt change in BMW design. BMW’s have always evolved in logical directions, even if sometimes the designs weren’t gradual and leapfrogged (example: from the BMW E30 to the BMW E36), they still made sense and kept their ‘Germaneness’ about them. If you look at the other German car companies (save for design-crazy VW), they have all always taken the same direction towards making new models. Even departures from the norm were always well-executed and made sense. Now, take BMW circa 2001: every design, every car they had for sale was perfect, from the elegant 7 to the awesome M5 to the ever-so-rare Z8. All was well in the world. And then the new 7 came out, with its Bangle Butt, its odd headlights and ‘blob’ body. And then the new 5 came out, with its flattened sheet metal design, and truly FUGLY headlights. And then they had the audacity to mess with the 3, by disgracing the kidney grill and putting the oddest, inverted lines on the car. And then, for the final insult they came out with the 6, which combined the ugliness from all the cars together to make the final insult to all the loyal fans of the car vomit their guts out every time they saw one the street. And all the inspiration for Bangles designs came from where? Buildings! Not cars! But, buildings! WTF? Is BMW an architectural firm? A blind, deaf, and mute I.M. Pei, who has just been attacked by rabid dogs, could design a better car than Bangle, and Pei is an Architect, not a car designer! Jon.
post #64 of 146
Jon-
A bit of overkill here.

To address your points:

Your personal view is obviously highly subjective (which is fine). I think the new Benz redesign is a definite downgrade: it looks like an expensive dodge intrepid to me- but this is all a matter of preference. Ultimately you really cannot define what is "good" or "bad".

The general view- So what if he is looking to buildings and not to cars? Your whole premise revolves around the idea that there is some kind of set of rules and regulations for how to design a car. Additionally, I think your points indicate that what defines "good" for you is something that ties in design elements of your favorite classic cars. You say you're ok with innovative design, but only so long as it is extremely gradual...so really you're not ok with aggressive design.

In both your points you make references over and over to other cars you think look better or the BMW should emulate in terms of redesign. The very point I am trying to make is that whether you like it or not recognize Bangle for what he is/it is- trying to be unlike other modern car companies in terms of design and inspiration. You don't have to like it- but acknowledge what it is rather than labeling it as "bad".

Finally- my personal opinion (also re: sgladwell): I actually do not really like most of the Bangle designs. As someone who loved the design of the 740iL it pains me to admit I have grown to admire the new 7 series design. The rest of the new Bangle designs I am luke warm on. I would say, since this is a "coolest" car thread- I think the 91 850ci would be on my list of coolest. And of course I think the E46 is a great design.
post #65 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTGuy
Jon-
A bit of overkill here.

To address your points:

Your personal view is obviously highly subjective (which is fine). I think the new Benz redesign is a definite downgrade: it looks like an expensive dodge intrepid to me- but this is all a matter of preference. Ultimately you really cannot define what is "good" or "bad".

The general view- So what if he is looking to buildings and not to cars? Your whole premise revolves around the idea that there is some kind of set of rules and regulations for how to design a car. Additionally, I think your points indicate that what defines "good" for you is something that ties in design elements of your favorite classic cars. You say you're ok with innovative design, but only so long as it is extremely gradual...so really you're not ok with aggressive design.

In both your points you make references over and over to other cars you think look better or the BMW should emulate in terms of redesign. The very point I am trying to make is that whether you like it or not recognize Bangle for what he is/it is- trying to be unlike other modern car companies in terms of design and inspiration. You don't have to like it- but acknowledge what it is rather than labeling it as "bad".

Finally- my personal opinion (also re: sgladwell): I actually do not really like most of the Bangle designs. As someone who loved the design of the 740iL it pains me to admit I have grown to admire the new 7 series design. The rest of the new Bangle designs I am luke warm on. I would say, since this is a "coolest" car thread- I think the 91 850ci would be on my list of coolest. And of course I think the E46 is a great design.

I was not talking about the entire new S-Class, I was only using it as a comparison regarding the Bangle Butt, a design BMW originated. Also, when you see them side by side, the Benz looks a lot better. Granted, the new S is not as good looking as the old S, but I think the reason for this is that MB has gained a reputation as "˜an old mans car' and they are trying to shed the image by making the cars more "˜muscular' in look and more powerful in the horsepower department (just take a look at all the new AMG models with insane amounts of HP). When it comes to the exaction of the Bangle Butt, the S-Class works and the 7-Series doesn't.

Buildings are stationary. They are the opposite of cars. At least when they used to model cars with airplane designs (oh, god another fiasco) they were basing them on moving objects. I mean the RR Phantom looks like a small tank, but at least it's a car based on something that moves, not something stationary. Also, it's hypocritical of BMW to keep on talking about the history of their cars and saying that they design their cars based on BMW's past models and their history, and then go ahead and design cars based on buildings.

I don't label bangles designs as "˜bad'. I label them as "˜ugly', quite a difference.

JP, you should really read some of Bangles speeches or watch videos of him trying to explain design, it's really quite bizarre, and not in a good, quirky, "˜absent-minded professor' sort of way.

I leave you with:



And the fantastic, driver oriented interior:



Jon.
post #66 of 146
yawn
post #67 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
Also, it's hypocritical of BMW to keep on talking about the history of their cars and saying that they design their cars based on BMW's past models and their history, and then go ahead and design cars based on buildings.

That's a non sequitur. Taking inspiration from buildings doesn't mean you can't maintain your heritage: kidney grills, Hoffmeister kink, 4-eyed headlights, short front overhang, cab-backward design, distinct beltline, 50-50 weight distribution, etc. I'm glad BMW is being eclectic in their design. It sure beats the YAJMRR (Yet Another J Mays Retro Rehash) school of design, which shows how desparately out of ideas the Americans are. It's better than the Japanese who mostly copy what they Germans do. It's better than M-B who have completely forgotten who they are. It's better than VW who are chasing after too many things they have no business chasing (Phaeton?), and diluting Audi and VW into cars that are as distinct from each other as NASCAR-branded tubeframes. It's great to see a car company with a point of view, and the cojones to follow through with it.

And yes, you should listen to Bangle talk --- the passion he has for cars and design is contagious. One of my favorite pieces of marketing was a series of vignettes of Bangle going over various little things on an E46 talking about why things are there and how they were designed.

Judging cars based on still photos is just one facet of their design. You want to see the definition of bad-ass? Look at an E65 7 series being hussled around a racetrack. Compare that to the original Audi TT, which looks good only when standing still.

--Andre
post #68 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whnay.
yawn
Dude, you trying to copy JA’s style? Cus, it’s not working. The only yawn was the picture of Bangle’s uninspired MM prototype. Jon.
post #69 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Yew
That's a non sequitur. Taking inspiration from buildings doesn't mean you can't maintain your heritage: kidney grills, Hoffmeister kink, 4-eyed headlights, short front overhang, cab-backward design, distinct beltline, 50-50 weight distribution, etc. I'm glad BMW is being eclectic in their design. It sure beats the YAJMRR (Yet Another J Mays Retro Rehash) school of design, which shows how desparately out of ideas the Americans are. It's better than the Japanese who mostly copy what they Germans do. It's better than M-B who have completely forgotten who they are. It's better than VW who are chasing after too many things they have no business chasing (Phaeton?), and diluting Audi and VW into cars that are as distinct from each other as NASCAR-branded tubeframes. It's great to see a car company with a point of view, and the cojones to follow through with it.

And yes, you should listen to Bangle talk --- the passion he has for cars and design is contagious. One of my favorite pieces of marketing was a series of vignettes of Bangle going over various little things on an E46 talking about why things are there and how they were designed.

Judging cars based on still photos is just one facet of their design. You want to see the definition of bad-ass? Look at an E65 7 series being hussled around a racetrack. Compare that to the original Audi TT, which looks good only when standing still.

--Andre

I really think that's how they designed it: to look good when parked. The original TT always struck me as an "˜accessory car', something to be seen in and not driven, kind of like the original SLK, but taken to a farther extreme. I think the new TT is really more of a driver's car (incidentally, the angle of the center consol, skewed towards the driver is very BMW-esq, sad really...since BMW got the angle down perfectly). What Audi did with the original TT was exactly what Bangle did with BMW, (again, except for the Z4) he tried to make a car version of a Bauhaus-style building, and it just doesn't work. As long as he is at it, why doesn't he try to make a car styled after Versailles?

I applaud Lexus for copying the Germans (read: Mercedes) and taking their market directly away from them...it takes balls to go directly after them, and blatantly rip them off, the American car companies should try it. They copied their design and their build quality. Until the Lexus build quality surpassed Mercedes' and then the Japanese started to turn in another stylistic direction, mainly the L-finesse style now seen on the IS / LS sedans. This is the first LS sedan that is completely original, without copying the Mercedes S-Class, its also a lot better built and will undoubtedly break less.

VW has been trying to go up market ever since they bought Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti, which leads me to ask, why then did they buy them in the first place? I never thought the Phaeton was a good idea, since you could buy a comparable Audi A8 for just a bit more and have a nicer car, with a better nameplate and better service. Audi is just fine where it is, and pushing VW up market is not a good idea. Especially, when Audi's are extremely well built and quite competitive for their price range and look a lot better. At least the Phaeton did have one useful purpose: to be the underpinnings for the Bentley Continental GT and Flying Spur. VW however is thinking of cutting back engine choices and streamlining their production lines with fewer choices (a-la Acura), something Mercedes should look into, now that they have like 40 different cars (models + engine choices).

Again, it's my opinion, but I agree with Richard Hammond when he called the new 3-Series "˜a lump of car'. It's not like it was before, it's too bloated, too big, too self-engaged onto its own design and previous glory. That's hardly ballsy, oddly stupid is more like it, especially when every person that I know that currently owns a BMW and is happy with their car really doesn't want another one, due to the design change. Bangle doesn't talk about cars, that's the problem! He talks about how it looks like an arrow, or a building, or some other damn thing, but never how it looks like this car, or that car, or how it fits with the road. Bad Ass was the manual, 6-speed 750i's (E38) made for Europe. Try that with the E65...oh, wait you can't, cus where the gear lever should be they replaced it with a silver computer knob.

I left the Americans out for a very good reason. The last original American car (from the big 3) was the GT 40...when they actually found a way to beat the Italians at their own game. And that was what? 40 years ago.

Jon.
post #70 of 146
Start a new thread for your crusade.
post #71 of 146
I'm definitely with imageWIS on this. New BMW's are an atrocity compared to everything they've made up until the early 90's. If I see any 90's BMW of any make, I see a beautiful car. If I see anything with the new redesigns, even the subtly changed 3-series, I feel let down. Over the years, the new 5 series has become the most tolerable, and the premium level M5 actually does look very good, but the other cars still just don't do it for me.

I just test drove the 325 yesterday with my girlfriend (she's in the market), as well as 3 Audi's, and she decided on an Audi. She doesn't know anything about cars... believe me on that... and she could point out that the BMW's styling was odd and the car was a bore to drive, compared to the Audi's. She felt like the BMW was a "point A to point B" type of vehicle probably really great for people who just need a "nice car that they don't have to worry about", whereas the Audi's were much more "fun, exciting, and felt younger and cool". Also, she is going to buy a wagon, and she liked how she has a lot of options with Audi (A3 (2.0T, 3.2, quattro, FWD, DSG, manual, auto), A4 (2.0T, 3.2, auto, manual, FWD, quattro), S4 (auto, manual)) and she has really no options with BMW (325xi (auto, manual)).

Anyway, this thread is off topic, but really, what thread's aren't?
post #72 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantucket Red
Start a new thread for your crusade.

This thread went off topic...and? It happens all the time, and it wasn't that off-topic since we were still talking about cars. And BMW's used to be cool, until they started to look pretty damn ugly.

Jon.
post #73 of 146
It's just that you and others have a thread's worth of material that you're squandering here.
post #74 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by imageWIS
Bangle doesn't talk about cars, that's the problem!

He does. A lot, and in great detail.

--Andre
post #75 of 146
Oh, the humanity.

Anyway, the Veyron is my vote. It is beautiful and produces more horses than the Triple Crown.

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