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A&S - Page 51

post #751 of 1570
Uhh, is it just me, or did a bunch of big posts in this thread suddenly disappear?
post #752 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Take a look at T.G.'s Photoshop job. The left front of the jacket has been enlarged and rotated at the buttoning point. Whatever effects that result from such changes on the computer screen wouldn't happen in real life because the changes themselves are impossible.

I don't know about the enlarging, I assumed that was an unintentional Photoshop side-effect. The rotation is possible by straightening the neck point, which shortens the front balance and straightens the stripes. Of course this requires completely recutting the fronts, as mentioned.
post #753 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Uhh, is it just me, or did a bunch of big posts in this thread suddenly disappear?
No, you didn't imagine it.
post #754 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguis Mortuum View Post
I don't know about the enlarging, I assumed that was an unintentional Photoshop side-effect. The rotation is possible by straightening the neck point, which shortens the front balance and straightens the stripes. Of course this requires completely recutting the fronts, as mentioned.

Exactly. If you had to recut the fronts to do what Tailorgod is illustrating, you would also adjust them to keep the collar fit correct. On the other hand, if you were to use the existing fronts, they would have to be shifted up at the shoulder seam, which would not allow the buttoning point to stay in the same place.
post #755 of 1570
Drape, according to your definition is a vertical fold giving extra room. I can see that on Vox's and Foo's coats but not on the A&S version of Manton. Not in the front, not in the back. This is from the film "Matrimonio all'italiana" and it shows an image of a coat worn by Marcello Mastroiani. Marcello had a similar round back with some sort of lack of flesh at the sides, which makes it very hard to get this result: The sleeves are cut in a way to allow for extra movement in the back, but yet the pitch is correct. About my manipulation: The waist is a fixed line (in a pattern), whether you move the buttoning point or not, same applies to the location waist suppression (natural or higher). Since Manton has relatively wide hips (the measurements don't always reveal the true body shape, which I guess is a bit on the slouchy side) I should have widened the hips, too. When tailors draft a pattern they start with vertical and horizontal lines. The horizontal ones are chest, waist and hip. With these lines the balance of a coat is created according to the customer's measurements. The easiest way to draft a pattern is using the width measures and draft a proportionate pattern. Once you have that established you might alter it according to the balance measures taken. With a round back you open the upper part of the back pattern until you get the length you need. You do the same in the front, but instead of opening you close (pinch) it! The regular man with a round back has usually a caved in chest, which requires a shorter front balance. The erect figures need a longer front and a shorter back balance. Even if the shoulder point was fixed and the hips let out, the closing button would go up. But since the length of the lapel does not change, the collar would sit up to his ears. Every tailor has to draw in the bridle (that's where the lapel fold is) to create a fuller chest. This is usually an amount around 1cm (or 1/2"), give or take a few mm depending on the fabric. The reason why there is no drape (at least in the sense I understand it) is the neckpoint ( that's where the shoulder seam meets the collar on a coat with a shoulder line that is not slanted to the back) being too far from the neck. If, and this brings me back to the balance issue, they had cut a shorter front balance the neck point would have automatically moved towards the neck a bit more and the lines would appear more vertical and horizontal. I know you'll find a way to tweak the facts once again to justify your praises for A&S, which is probably second nature to you. Look, doubt me all you want, but read again what Chris Despos wrote. It is actually a pity that the balance is so off. The coat in general and the back especially show good pattern matching and I think they have given the back quite a bit of thought, since the pieces are cut to gain a full check after assembly (so the "vagina" in the upper back is almost unavoidable).
post #756 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Exactly. If you had to recut the fronts to do what Tailorgod is illustrating, you would also adjust them to keep the collar fit correct. On the other hand, if you were to use the existing fronts, they would have to be shifted up at the shoulder seam, which would not allow the buttoning point to stay in the same place.

Yes, obviously you wouldn't just rotate the whole front, it would need to be recut. As I said, I think he was using the distance of the collar after rotation just to show how crooked the neckpoint is, not to imply that you would ever actually rotate it like that without recutting the fronts with a straighter neckpoint. In-fact it would be the act of straightening the neck point which would be the cause of the fronts rotating.

If you just shifted up the shoulder seam (lowered the neckpoint) then it would straighten the stripes, and it would raise the buttoning point as you say, but it would also cause a large cap between the neck and collar similar to that shown by TailorGod. It might also make the shoulders more square than they should be, which will cause other issues. By moving the shoulder up or down like this you are only addressing the minor vertical balance, not the real problem which is with the major vertical balance.
post #757 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Exactly. If you had to recut the fronts to do what Tailorgod is illustrating, you would also adjust them to keep the collar fit correct. On the other hand, if you were to use the existing fronts, they would have to be shifted up at the shoulder seam, which would not allow the buttoning point to stay in the same place.

Actually, one way to use the existing fronts would be to let the shoulders out, along with wider hips it would make the fronts come around. That is if you want to keep the collar the way it is...
Plus the buttoning point wouldn't move that much.
But I doubt there is enough inlays to do it and the time spent on this would almost equal that of making a new coat.
Easiest way would be to cut new fronts. But why bother, Manton is happy with it!

FWIW, I don't use photoshop!
post #758 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailorgod View Post
FWIW, I don't use photoshop!
No, you use shears!
post #759 of 1570
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailorgod View Post
I know you'll find a way to tweak the facts once again to justify your praises for A&S, which is probably second nature to you.

Please go back and read through this thread and read what I have actually said about this coat and about A&S. I first mentioned the problem with the fronts before I even posted the coat. Then I posted the coat knowing full well that h8ers like you would have a field day with it. To the extent that I have defended it, I have done so against bogus and unfair criticism.

I don't know what it is about this topic that turns so many people into dishonest dicks, but the level of projection is breathtaking. You are so invested in hating A&S that that you constantly accuse me of blind partisanship for them when in everything I have written I have been extremely honest about my experience with them and what I see as wrong with this coat. I really don't care if you can see some technical flaw that I can't. The coat is on the neck, perfectly. The shoulders fit, perfectly. The sleeves follow my arms, pefectly in front but imperfectly in back. You either like the waist or you don't. The front balance is dropped--true. The back is perfect.

Sorry, but I can can't stand the squared-off boxy shit that you and your buddies drool over. If those are "correct" I'll take my incorrect coat any day. BTW, the drape is highlighted below. It's easier to see IRL, but not absent in the photo:



This other pic shows it a bit more clearly:



I await the Rube Goldberg explanation of why that also is not drape, or not drape done "correctly."

It is mind boggling to be arguing with a drape h8er about the supposed lack of drape in a coat. Shouldn't that be a feature for you, not a bug? Ditto the pinched waist? Sator was always going on about how drape = "too big" whereas true tailors make body-hugging coats. But somehow this one is all wrong because it's too fitted?
post #760 of 1570
As a card-carrying analdrapist (analyst of drape), I can confirm: Manton has teh drape. Not my kind of silhouette, but it looks good on you.
post #761 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manton View Post
Sorry, but I can can't stand the squared-off boxy shit that you and your buddies drool over.

Do these look 'squared-off' and 'boxy' to you:

post #762 of 1570
Thread Starter 
No, but I can't stand that either and would never wear it. The difference between me and the tailor gang is that I am not going to go into belabored technical explantions about why your preferences are "incorrect." I can see that those fit well. But they look incredibly precious and artificial to me.
post #763 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguis Mortuum View Post
Do these look 'squared-off' and 'boxy' to you:


That is an ugly, ugly coat.
post #764 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric View Post
That is an ugly, ugly coat.
Which one? Theres two... And I'm not posting them based on their stylistic choices, some of which are a bit dated, I'm posting them because of the fit. And to show that the absence of drape does not in any way imply 'squared-off' and 'boxy'. (Although I still fail to see how you can call either one 'ugly', the flared skirt on the right one is odd, but the fabric is a pretty standard glen check, and the one on the left isn't particularly unusual either. If Vox posted pictures of himself wearing either of these suits everyone would be shooting their load)
post #765 of 1570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric View Post
That is an ugly, ugly coat.

Why?
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