Summer suits that can be worn in the winter?

Originally Posted by greekonomist

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Foo, I appreciate where you're coming from. I think I could probably handle it with an overcoat. What about Smith's Finmeresco?
Great point, he should also get a fresco overcoat.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Hmm, okay. I just hear you guys rave about how awesome fresco is for the summer, and I don't have any summery suits. I like the slightly rough-looking, nubby texture of fresco. Tropical worsteds are just a little boring to me.

Eventually (years down the line), I'd like to wind up with a flannel-heavy winter suit wardrobe and a fresco/linen-heavy summer suit wardrobe.

Foo, you're an attorney, face the facts. Fresco will freeze you in the winter and flannel will boil you in the summer. In between you have light weight worsteds if you want to weight your choices to summer - that you find them boring means that you have to recalibrate your tastes because they are the only choice left to you. In the Lesser book there are a few POW versions that are perfect and a golden bale mid-gray windowpane (30138) which is genius. If you define all worsteds as boring then you have nothing to work with.

Foo, you can't have it all. Lightweight will be flimsy. Worsted will have less texture and will never be as porous or summery. Heavy, drapey will sufficate you and look out of place in the summer. There is no such thing as a cloth that will work at 90 degress and 30 degrees. That you pose the question with any semblance of seriousness is worrying. The LL Brisa is a good all rounder - but its some 12 or 13 ounces, it can be hot when the wind doesn't move in the summer and your legs will feel naked in the winter when the wind does blow. Silk long johns may be your best and only strategy.

Foo, your questioning and dogged insistence in pursuing the point is making me wonder if you get what this is all about. Build a wardrobe with some summer and some winter. Buy cloth that you like which fits a need. Concentrate on summer for summer's sake and winter for its own. Groove on Spring / Fall and the 3 season clothes. There is no "one suit to rule them all", no "longwing" or whatever shoes you wear that are equivalent if you live in a place with any seasonal variation.

Grow up, move to SoCal where the weather never changes and you'll be out of place in a suit so don't have to buy any or buy some more suits.

Braised

I find the difference in drape between summer weight fabrics and winter weight fabrics is very real and seriously defines fit for me. Factoring in NYC wind during Fall and Winter, I find that lighter weight fabrics aren't a great way to go. I have a couple of 8.5 ounce summer weight suits in lighter colors that work well in July and August. They deal with both the stifling heat of the subways and the discomfort from walking through Union Square in the blazing noon sun rather well. They're half lined and in slightly less formal or classic patterns. While I still wear them to court, I comfortably wear them to weddings or evening events and don't feel that I'm the guy in the navy suit who just came from work. My heavier (12.5 ounce) wool flannel suits drape so much better that I will tend to wear them more frequently and from early Fall through late Spring. This weight does get a bit warm in modern heated office buildings though.

One option is to order an extra pair of pants for seasonal suits if you're initially going with basic fabrics.

Do you have the need to wear suits as frequently in the summer? I find that litigation slows down somewhat significantly between mid-late June and early-mid September.

Originally Posted by greekonomist

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Foo, I appreciate where you're coming from. I think I could probably handle it with an overcoat. What about Smith's Finmeresco?

I can't find any pictures online .

Originally Posted by greekonomist

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This thread does bring up the issue of how to build a wardrobe over time. What order to acquire suits in which fabrics for which seasons, knowing that you'll necessarily have a smaller number of suits to start out.

Exactly my issue. If I could buy 10 suits within a year, there'd be no problem. The point is that I am limited to buying only a few, and would like them to be good foundational elements for a more comprehensive wardrobe to be developed over time.

Originally Posted by voxsartoria

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One of Will's old articles is a good a place to start as any.

It is excellent, but even Will points out that his suggested approach to a starting a basic suit wardrobe leaves summer unaccounted for. In my case, that's simply not acceptable. If I followed his advice, I'd wind up with barely enough to spend on a single suit to wear during the summer.

I don't mean to say his advice isn't good. It's great, in fact. It just doesn't work for my particular situation. That raises the question: Will, what would you do?

Originally Posted by braised

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Foo, you're an attorney, face the facts. Fresco will freeze you in the winter and flannel will boil you in the summer. In between you have light weight worsteds if you want to weight your choices to summer - that you find them boring means that you have to recalibrate your tastes because they are the only choice left to you. In the Lesser book there are a few POW versions that are perfect and a golden bale mid-gray windowpane (30138) which is genius. If you define all worsteds as boring then you have nothing to work with.

Foo, you can't have it all. Lightweight will be flimsy. Worsted will have less texture and will never be as porous or summery. Heavy, drapey will sufficate you and look out of place in the summer. There is no such thing as a cloth that will work at 90 degress and 30 degrees. That you pose the question with any semblance of seriousness is worrying. The LL Brisa is a good all rounder - but its some 12 or 13 ounces, it can be hot when the wind doesn't move in the summer and your legs will feel naked in the winter when the wind does blow. Silk long johns may be your best and only strategy.

Foo, your questioning and dogged insistence in pursuing the point is making me wonder if you get what this is all about. Build a wardrobe with some summer and some winter. Buy cloth that you like which fits a need. Concentrate on summer for summer's sake and winter for its own. Groove on Spring / Fall and the 3 season clothes. There is no "one suit to rule them all", no "longwing" or whatever shoes you wear that are equivalent if you live in a place with any seasonal variation.

Grow up, move to SoCal where the weather never changes and you'll be out of place in a suit so don't have to buy any or buy some more suits.

Braised

Generally, I'm not okay boiling, but I can tolerate freezing.

For me, the main issue is surviving the subway station, which is only a few minutes from my apartment. In the winter, there's no problem since it tends to be heated sufficiently. On the other hand, it is always muggy and hot during the summer. I don't want to be drenched in sweat by the time I get to work.

I would love to concentrate on each season as it comes, fulfilling my needs as I go, but I know enough about my finances to realize that I will run out of funds to buy enough suits for summer if I do that. After all, five suits for cold and hot weather each are necessary to maintain a single weekly rotation. That's ten suits for a year. I've got three to work with at the moment--there's no way I'm buying seven suits over the next year.

You can wear them when you like. Some will argue that this or that is for winter or for summer but in reality anything can be worn depending upon your own needs and concerns.

I have a suit from the Finmeresco and it's fine for San Francisco summer, which as you know is not normally all that warm. The same is true for the other 11/12 ounce English summer cloths in my experience.

The most seasonably appropriate wardrobe full of frescos and linens will have a couple of tropical worsteds.

Start with standards like a gray pick and pick and a navy twill. They are foundation suits that can be worn in cold weather with wool socks and an overcoat if they must. Personally, I wouldn't go lighter than eight ounce cloth for that use - mine are nine.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I would love to concentrate on each season as it comes, fulfilling my needs as I go, but I know enough about my finances to realize that I will run out of funds to buy enough suits for summer if I do that. After all, five suits for cold and hot weather each are necessary to maintain a single weekly rotation. That's ten suits for a year. I've got three to work with at the moment--there's no way I'm buying seven suits over the next year.
A 8 or 9 oz fresco or mohair in a slightly lighter navy or slightly lighter gray than you would usually get for winter might work. The lighter colour should be okay at looking summery, and hopefully won't look too odd in the winter since it'll be under artificial lighting or under an overcoat. I'm taking the same kind of approach in wardrobe building as you (except I get my stuff from Despos instead of Rubinacci, etc.), and I'm at about the same stage of accumulation. The difference, I guess, is that I have only one season to worry about in South Florida, so I can just buy summery stuff without having to worry about all of this; otherwise I'd probably be going through the same decisions as you. What are your ideal summer suits?

Originally Posted by GBR

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You can wear them when you like. Some will argue that this or that is for winter or for summer but in reality anything can be worn depending upon your own needs and concerns.

As a general rule, I agree. However, I'd like to pick things suited to the varying conditions I will have to wear them under. In the past, I was able to avoid being very cloth-conscious because I could avoid wearing suits (even jackets) all summer. However, the prospect of having to wear a suit all summer, when temperatures are in the 80's and 90's, has forced my hand.

Originally Posted by Will

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I have a suit from the Finmeresco and it's fine for San Francisco summer, which as you know is not normally all that warm. The same is true for the other 11/12 ounce English summer cloths in my experience.

I saw the blue-grey one on your blog. Really gorgeous, but maybe a tad heavy for my purposes, right?

Originally Posted by Will

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The most seasonably appropriate wardrobe full of frescos and linens will have a couple of tropical worsteds.

Start with standards like a gray pick and pick and a navy twill. They are foundation suits that can be worn in cold weather with wool socks and an overcoat if they must. Personally, I wouldn't go lighter than eight ounce cloth for that use - mine are nine.

Is this because tropical worsteds will look better when I need to be the most business formal, or because the cloth functions differently?

I'm dreaming of an excuse to buy a linen suit, but I can't find one. They don't appear very office-friendly--at least, not in Manhattan.

Originally Posted by Aluan

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A 8 or 9 oz fresco or mohair in a slightly lighter navy or slightly lighter gray than you would usually get for winter might work. The lighter colour should be okay at looking summery, and hopefully won't look too odd in the winter since it'll be under artificial lighting or under an overcoat.

I'm taking the same kind of approach in wardrobe building as you (except I get my stuff from Despos instead of Rubinacci, etc.), and I'm at about the same stage of accumulation. The difference, I guess, is that I have only one season to worry about in South Florida, so I can just buy summery stuff without having to worry about all of this; otherwise I'd probably be going through the same decisions as you. What are your ideal summer suits?

Agreed on the coloring. As for my bigger plan, here's what I'm thinking:

Plan A: 3 frescos + 1 heavier worsted or flannel

I'd wear each fresco during the winter, along with my four heavier suits, giving me a 7-suit fall/winter/spring rotation. During the summer, I'd wear the frescos, plus one or two heavier worsteds (11 oz. or so) that I'd have to suffer in, giving me a four or five suit sumer rotation.

Plan B: 2 frescos + 2 heavier worsteds

Same as above, but more suffering in the summer. The two heavier worsteds would be in the 11 oz. range.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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I saw the blue-grey one on your blog. Really gorgeous, but maybe a tad heavy for my purposes, right?

Definitely.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

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Is this because tropical worsteds will look better when I need to be the most business formal, or because the cloth functions differently?


Tropical worsteds are OK in summer, will look more like a seasonally appropriate suit in the winter, and will be warmer than frescos. You'll have frostbitten calves in a 9/10 ounce fresco in winter, even in an overcoat.

While like Foo I far prefer freezing to boiling, having worn a flannel DB suit in the heat of summer--you'd still be a lot more comfortable than any unfortunates wearing a polyester suit.

a flannel suit looks terribly out of place in the summer, I cant believe you'd even consider doing that, especially in a thickness thats really a winter suit.

If i'm not mistaken you have a grey flannel, DB. If its too chilly for that in the winter you need an overcoat, wool ties and long johns.

There are days where I feel cold wearing flannel boxers, long johns an undershirt, thick cotton shirt, flannels a sweater and sportcoat with a scarf and wool socks, so i really cant imagine wearing a linen suit in the winter.

I hear you on the 4-season stuff, it sucks in the summer and winter and works nicely the 1-2 mo. a year that are 70 degrees.

Just my opinion, I think you should get a nice heavy glenplaid flannel for this season and save a little extra money for a linen suit once the summer rolls around.

Originally Posted by Will

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Tropical worsteds are OK in summer, will look more like a seasonally appropriate suit in the winter, and will be warmer than frescos. You'll have frostbitten calves in a 9/10 ounce fresco in winter, even in an overcoat.

Gotcha. Still don't like the stuff, but I'll give it some extra thought and see if I can examine some of the Lesser examples others have recommended.

Originally Posted by SkinnyGoomba

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Just my opinion, I think you should get a nice heavy glenplaid flannel for this season and save a little extra money for a linen suit once the summer rolls around.

The issue is that I need more suits immediately, and a single summer suit won't cut it when it gets hot.

Actually, what you need is to quit having big timer taste on a small timer bidget, and to stop rationalising bad decisions.

Originally Posted by apropos

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Actually, what you need is to quit having big timer taste on a small timer bidget, and to stop rationalising bad decisions.

You might be right about being too big time for my budget, but I really don't want to switch to another tailor, only to hazard another adjustment period and winding up with a greater quantity of stuff which I don't like nearly as much. Anyway, I'm rationalizing less than you think. Even if switched to WW Chan and spent a fraction of Rubinacci's cost per suit, I'd still take the same approach. The only difference is that I'd be able to speed up the process significanty.

An interesting read. Switching to a cheaper tailor for the next 4-5 suits is a set back, but maybe worth it for a year or two. Working with another tailor will give you another experience. A way to learn something else about tailoring. If they are cheap enough you won't mind giving them away if you don't like them. The other suggestion is as others say, wear long johns in winter to get to work (you can take them off at work); a great coat (long enough to cover the calfs, this can be shorten later); on hot days, to and from work, just carry the jacket and put it on before you walk in the work door. There is to much nonsense about, Never take off the coat! While the general rule is not bad, who followed it to a T? I think you will find that the strictest didn't follow that rule absolutely. In other words they were reasonable men. I believe there are many pictures that show the most sartorially educated without their coats on. Besides, this is only going to last a year or two, not a life time. Don't sweat it!