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How has globalization benefited America? - Page 17

post #241 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcaimen View Post
What do you consider middle class in Brazil? How many reais a year? In my experience its a struggle to be middle class in Brazil. Things like a cover charge at a club can easily be too much of a barrier for a middle class Brazilian. I always have to be cognizant of how much money a night out is going to cost because something as simple as a dinner and a night out at a nightclub is just too much for many of them to comfortably handle.

I dont know any auto workers in brazil but I would bet they lead very spartan lives.

ok, lets get our concepts of "middle class" off the table. for a 19 year old being able to go to a club in the 3rd world is rich, not middle class. having a place to live with a floor and plaster on the walls, havign a change of shoes, having a stove, having running water, that makes you middle class.
post #242 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoRon View Post
That may be, but he is better off doing the job and eating meat once a week than having no job or a less desirable one and no meat at all. He may even get enough wage to save a little every week and get himself out of squalor.

If he demands more than the market wage for the work, someone else will do it instead of him. That's why he's doing the job instead of his American neighbor.

I wasn't arguing this. I'm arguing the absurd assumption that Brazilian workers are happy living in a favela and catching the bus every morning. Yes. The guy in Brazil is not starving but he's definitely not happy. He probably lives in a shack with no running water or sewer system scared to death when it starts raining because his house will come down with a mud slide.
post #243 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarphe View Post
the probelm for the wesern economies is that the with increasing level of education you will see the developeing world be able to do those jobs as well at lower price.

Yes ...it is a vicious cycle.

The thing is, Globalization has lifted millions of third-world people out of desperate poverty -- this is something Socialism could never have done. The anti-Globalization Socialists never acknowledge that.

There must be a way of making this work -- but protectionism is not the answer.
post #244 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarphe View Post
wow well the the brazialian may nto benefit but the you rmiddel class consuemr around the world will as they will pay less for their product. and if the job goes to a the brazialian he may gain more money than before to remove himslef from the squalor, nto the point the point the worker in the developed world may feel cormfortable but yes he may be able to eat at restaraunt once in while etc.

How does the middle class consumer benefit if he can't consume? A quick question. Why is the American economy so much bigger than anyone else's?
post #245 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraiso View Post
I wasn't arguing this. I'm arguing the absurd assumption that Brazilian workers are happy living in a favela and catching the bus every morning. Yes. The guy in Brazil is not starving but he's definitely not happy. He probably lives in a shack with no running water or sewer system scared to death when it starts raining because his house will come down with a mud slide.

I would dispute with you that the guy competing with a detroit auto worker is living in a shack on a muddy hillside. there are ten million appartments in SP that are niether rich nor shacks, but spartan and reasonable living places. and, yes - if your parents didn't have beans every day then you are happy getting beans every day.
post #246 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraiso View Post
Why is the American economy so much bigger than anyone else's?

we have been practicing a better system than anybody else's, longer
post #247 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraiso View Post
I wasn't arguing this. I'm arguing the absurd assumption that Brazilian workers are happy living in a favela and catching the bus every morning. Yes. The guy in Brazil is not starving but he's definitely not happy. He probably lives in a shack with no running water or sewer system scared to death when it starts raining because his house will come down with a mud slide.

I dont know any auto workers. I do know a lot of technicians and secrataries, as well as businessmen.

a good friend of mine is the son of a cop - his father was a brazilian uniformed cop. my friend owns 9 cars (in order to get around the law that only allows you to drive cars in town with certain numbers on certain days).

most of the technicians in his office are at a social level with auto workers. they seem to be happy. I doubt any of them have a flat screen tv, but they are all healthy and eat enough calories. I am sure that not all of their parents could say the same thing.
post #248 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
ok, lets get our concepts of "middle class" off the table. for a 19 year old being able to go to a club in the 3rd world is rich, not middle class. having a place to live with a floor and plaster on the walls, havign a change of shoes, having a stove, having running water, that makes you middle class.

Thats why I asked for a yearly income. To get some idea of who we are talking about.

My experience is with people in their 30's to late 40's. Yes, they have a place to stay and running water but its almost always a multi generational household. Very few "middle class" can afford an apt for themselves alone. Its tough to be say a teacher in Brazil. Very, very hard to get ahead financially. The characterization of the brazilian middle class as being comfortable is simply wrong in my experience and I spend two and sometimes three months a year living in Brazil and have for many years.
post #249 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypersonic View Post
Yes ...it is a vicious cycle. The thing is, Globalization has lifted millions of third-world people out of desperate poverty -- this is something Socialism could never have done. The anti-Globalization Socialists never acknowledge that. There must be a way of making this work -- but protectionism is not the answer.
Bravo
post #250 of 370
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sorry, you are an idiot.


I had Fujuada in SP last wednsday, how about that?

What is that? Is it a japanese style feijoada?

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I make my living sellling a product aimed at developing middle classes, the development of middle classes in emerging markets is something I know a little bit about.

With your comments it is apparent you know fuck all to be honest.

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When you talk about "squalar" you are talking about poor people.

Which is most construction workers and factory workers filho da puta.

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in places like Turkey there are millions of people whose parents were, essentially, poor, but who are now what goes for middle class in those countries. they can have a clean and dry apartment, ride clean and safe public transportation to work, and they can have meat once a week, a tv, a few changes of clothing. and they are thrilled to be living like that, when their parents lived a much tougher life.

It sucks for you that I went to Turkey with an ex-girlfriend of mine. Her family lives in Istanbul. Her father receives a military pension and he's a construction worker. Her mother works at a textile manufacturer. They are not happy about eating meat once a week, they are constantly worried about making their rent, very few people in the Turkish middle class own their own homes, and they don't even have a car. They are not fucking thrilled about the prospects of getting whiped out economically if one of them loses their job. Where do you work again?

Quote:
are you disputing that? if so, you are full of shit.

Look who is talking about being full of shit. Yeah, the people around the world who earn a combined $800 bucks a month are doing fucking back flips. Orospu Cocugu.
post #251 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
we have been practicing a better system than anybody else's, longer


And that system is?
post #252 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter View Post
I dont know any auto workers. I do know a lot of technicians and secrataries, as well as businessmen.

a good friend of mine is the son of a cop - his father was a brazilian uniformed cop. my friend owns 9 cars (in order to get around the law that only allows you to drive cars in town with certain numbers on certain days).

most of the technicians in his office are at a social level with auto workers. they seem to be happy. I doubt any of them have a flat screen tv, but they are all healthy and eat enough calories. I am sure that not all of their parents could say the same thing.

In other words. You're talking shit about things you have absolutely no knowledge about. I see. And then you tell me I'm full of shit?

A cop with nine cars? It seems like he's getting around more laws than just the one about driving with odd or even numbered plates.
post #253 of 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by redcaimen View Post
Thats why I asked for a yearly income. To get some idea of who we are talking about.

My experience is with people in their 30's to late 40's. Yes, they have a place to stay and running water but its almost always a multi generational household. Very few "middle class" can afford an apt for themselves alone. Its tough to be say a teacher in Brazil. Very, very hard to get ahead financially. The characterization of the brazilian middle class as being comfortable is simply wrong in my experience and I spend two and sometimes three months a year living in Brazil and have for many years.

but that is middle class. it is very hard to get ahead in most of the world. and you know what? that is the way it will be from here on in the states, too.

I first went to Turkey 20 years ago. there were thousands of mud huts on the way from the airport to Istanbul center. your average family that wasn't rich, 20 years ago, lived in a single room, maybe with a section curtained off, and ate bread and vegetables and a little meat for most meals. they might not have had plaster, or a hard floor, or running water.

there kids live in apartments, and might even have cars, have a tv. and they are able to do exactly what a worker in detroit does.


in brazil it is a similar situation - sure, they don't have what people in the US have. do you despute that they are better off than their parents? that they are better off than 50% of the population in Brazil? what are we disputing here? that they would like to live better? sure, the guy in Detroit wants a bigger boat, the guy in SP wants a fridge. everyone should have dreams. but will he do a good job for 5 pounds of beans and 5 pounds of rice and some salt beef? sure he will.
post #254 of 370
seriously, P, what is your argument, that middle class people have financial pressures?

serious quesiton - how old are you?
post #255 of 370
GT: don't get in a pissing contest with someone who obviously drinks his own urine.
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