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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - Page 2424

post #36346 of 46955

Chris45,

I would keep those (if you paid 2nds prices).

 

Also, I don't have any split toes, but I think that you should get them to fit tight initially since they apparently widen more since there is a middle seam in there.  That is, compared to a captoe that doesn't as much.

post #36347 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWTeal View Post
 

Picked up these Delrays at Century 21 in NJ over the holidays for basically 66% off. I feel like these aren't posted here at all so I figured I'd share.

 

I didn't have a split-toe in the rotation I figured I needed at least a second black shoe to wear in the evenings other than my PAs. These are my first pair on the 8-last and the last is easily one of the more attractive ones AE has. Unfortunately I get pretty good bowing around the ankles so I haven't decided if I want to keep these. Is there a consensus on what causes bowing? Is it just a foot vs last issue? The shoe is pretty comfortable otherwise.

 

 

 

While it certainly can be a defect that causes bowing, I think the majority of cases result from the last not being ideal for some nuance of your particular foot (instep, ankle girth, etc.).

 

AE has taken some back and said that they discovered some issues with the leather itself that resulted in the issue.  It can also happen if the shoes aren't on the last long enough (AE only leaves shoes on the last for around 24 hours, while some of the more expensive brands leave them on the last for several weeks).  Long term storage of the shoes on their sides, with no shoe trees can potentially cause problems, but not always.

 

All that said, I think that people who try multiple pairs with the same results simply aren't facing the fact that the last isn't an ideal fit for their foot, in my opinion.

post #36348 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

 

While it certainly can be a defect that causes bowing, I think the majority of cases result from the last not being ideal for some nuance of your particular foot (instep, ankle girth, etc.).

 

AE has taken some back and said that they discovered some issues with the leather itself that resulted in the issue.  It can also happen if the shoes aren't on the last long enough (AE only leaves shoes on the last for around 24 hours, while some of the more expensive brands leave them on the last for several weeks).  Long term storage of the shoes on their sides, with no shoe trees can potentially cause problems, but not always.

 

All that said, I think that people who try multiple pairs with the same results simply aren't facing the fact that the last isn't an ideal fit for their foot, in my opinion.

 



I don't pretend to know the cause in the majority of the cases but I do know that on MANY occasions, I have seen brand new on the shelf AE shoes at various retailers that were bowing just sitting there. Now, there may well be explanations unrelated to defects in manufacturing to explain each of these instances - and also the many instances of bowing reported here by thread participants over the years. But I can't help but think that with this much smoke, there's likely a fire.
post #36349 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post
 

 

While it certainly can be a defect that causes bowing, I think the majority of cases result from the last not being ideal for some nuance of your particular foot (instep, ankle girth, etc.).

 

AE has taken some back and said that they discovered some issues with the leather itself that resulted in the issue.  It can also happen if the shoes aren't on the last long enough (AE only leaves shoes on the last for around 24 hours, while some of the more expensive brands leave them on the last for several weeks).  Long term storage of the shoes on their sides, with no shoe trees can potentially cause problems, but not always.

 

All that said, I think that people who try multiple pairs with the same results simply aren't facing the fact that the last isn't an ideal fit for their foot, in my opinion.

 

There has been extensive commentary on this and, if I recall correctly, even a comment from Paul G. on the subject.  MWS is correct that it is generally regarded as a combination of factors involving:  (i) not enough time on the last and too much time on the shelf; (ii) fit issues for that last; and (iii) a manufacturing defect.  One and two are the most common culprits, but people have received new shoes directly from the factory that have had bowing.  I believe Cold Iron received such a pair, measured the opening, compared that measurement to another shoe on the same last, and concluded the shoe's measurements were off (defective) where the bowing occurred.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
 

I don't pretend to know the cause in the majority of the cases but I do know that on MANY occasions, I have seen brand new on the shelf AE shoes at various retailers that were bowing just sitting there. Now, there may well be explanations unrelated to defects in manufacturing to explain each of these instances - and also the many instances of bowing reported here by thread participants over the years. But I can't help but think that with this much smoke, there's likely a fire.

 

No doubt sitting on retail shelves exacerbates the issue.  I wonder how much additional time on the last would be necessary to reduce the number of shoes with this defect.

post #36350 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
 

I don't pretend to know the cause in the majority of the cases but I do know that on MANY occasions, I have seen brand new on the shelf AE shoes at various retailers that were bowing just sitting there. Now, there may well be explanations unrelated to defects in manufacturing to explain each of these instances - and also the many instances of bowing reported here by thread participants over the years. But I can't help but think that with this much smoke, there's likely a fire.

 

They may well be cases of not being left on the last long enough in those instances.  I think they take a relatively minimum approach to how long they leave the shoes on the last.  The longer the better, but their production output doesn't really allow for what would be more ideal.  Not necessarily making excuses for that, but it I do think it falls into the realm of expedient manufacturing to save costs, and getting what you pay for, yada yada yada...

post #36351 of 46955
Not leaving shoes on their lasts long enough for them to properly take and keep their shape meets my general definition of a manufacturing defect. Paritucularly on a $350 shoe.

Lots of shoes - even some vastly less expensive than AE - manage to sit on display shelves and not visibly wilt while under no more stress than atmospheric pressure.
post #36352 of 46955

FYI, Lands' End has a few more sizes of the Bayfield in stock, and they are still discounted . . . 

 

http://www.landsend.com/products/mens-allen-edmonds-bayfield-captoe-boots/id_260396

post #36353 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfnhalfnhalf View Post
 

FYI, Lands' End has a few more sizes of the Bayfield in stock, and they are still discounted . . . 

 

http://www.landsend.com/products/mens-allen-edmonds-bayfield-captoe-boots/id_260396

 

I got my pair about a month ago from Lands End, couldn't be happier with them. Perfect in the snowy winter months along side of my Eagle County boots.

post #36354 of 46955

@coolarrow -- yes paid second prices (and also with the 50/100 discount)

@Sprint76 -- those you just received have the same issue?


Thank you everyone for the opinions/thoughts on the Kenilworth seconds.. since others are reporting the same similar 'issue' on their Kenilworth's and also reporting it on a pair of Kenilworth factory seconds also recently received.. I think it's probably in my best interest to just go ahead and keep them... 

 

I would just hate to send them back and get a different issue I disliked even more, or to get another one with the same thing =] 

 

I'm really liking the Neumok's ... now just to decide what I'm going to grab on the next Factory Seconds sale in Feb... PA and Neumok's or PA and some loafers.. who knows :)

post #36355 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

Not leaving shoes on their lasts long enough for them to properly take and keep their shape meets my general definition of a manufacturing defect. Paritucularly on a $350 shoe.

Lots of shoes - even some vastly less expensive than AE - manage to sit on display shelves and not visibly wilt while under no more stress than atmospheric pressure.

 

While you are correct that the shoes which are vastly less expensive than AE manage to avoid some "defects" like this, I presume it is often because of inherent differences in their construction.  For a shoe to be vastly less expensive than AE is it a safe assumption that we are referring to shoes constructed using cement, inferior leathers, etc.?  These shoes are also filled with plastic stiffeners between the leather lining and uppers to maintain the shape of inferior components.  As such, they can't be fairly compared.

 

Good quality leather requires time to conform and shape to the last, when they aren't being helped by synthetic components.

post #36356 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

 

While you are correct that the shoes which are vastly less expensive than AE manage to avoid some "defects" like this, I presume it is often because of inherent differences in their construction.  For a shoe to be vastly less expensive than AE is it a safe assumption that we are referring to shoes constructed using cement, inferior leathers, etc.?  These shoes are also filled with plastic stiffeners between the leather lining and uppers to maintain the shape of inferior components.  As such, they can't be fairly compared.

 

Good quality leather requires time to conform and shape to the last, when they aren't being helped by synthetic components.

 



I wasn't directly comparing them.

I was saying that a manufacturing process that does not allow sufficient time for lasting, resulting in shoes that lose their shape in a gentle breeze is unacceptable at the $350 price point. Unacceptable to me, that is - you are more than welcome to your own view on the subject. But kindly allow me to state my own.

The fact that many cheaper shoes do not exhibit this defect just makes it that much more galling coming from AE, in my view. I was not advancing the proposition that said cheaper shoes are equivalent to or better than AE in all aspects of their materials and construction or in any general sense whatsoever.
post #36357 of 46955

I was just thinking about this... How do things like off center medallions or wings happen? What kind of craftsman is bad enough at their job that they can't get that right? How does a shoemaker in his right mind not sew the tongue of a shoe on straight? Are the people that make these shoes legitimate craftsmen or just Joe Schmoes that prior to being hired by AE have never constructed a shoe before in their life?

 

Sorry if it sounds like I have a bone to pick, I certainly don't. The only pair of AE's that I currently have are superbly crafted in every way. It just seems like there are a lot of issues with this sort of thing. It seems like they have loads of seconds, and loads of supposed firsts with these issues that don't get discovered by QC.

 

It seems to me that in order for these sorts of issues to take place, people must not take much pride in their jobs. I realize that people make mistakes, but the number of mistakes that are made, and go unnoticed seems to be rather egregious.

 

Once again, I don't have any kind of bone to pick with AE (unless we're talking about their website photos :D). It's just something I was thinking about, and maybe my perception of how many mistakes are made is flawed as a result of being a regular follower of this thread... Just a thought.

post #36358 of 46955

I think the tongue's on my daltons aren't on straight. I was wondering why they were dashing off to the side when I got them.

post #36359 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

While you are correct that the shoes which are vastly less expensive than AE manage to avoid some "defects" like this, I presume it is often because of inherent differences in their construction.  For a shoe to be vastly less expensive than AE is it a safe assumption that we are referring to shoes constructed using cement, inferior leathers, etc.?  These shoes are also filled with plastic stiffeners between the leather lining and uppers to maintain the shape of inferior components.  As such, they can't be fairly compared.

Good quality leather requires time to conform and shape to the last, when they aren't being helped by synthetic components.

You sound like a bit of an AE apologist here, to be honest. Then again, it is an AE appreciation thread so shocking this is not. We all have our biases, myself included.

I'd like to see someone show other shoe makers where retail is $350+ and this issue is a common occurrence. I would venture to guess you'd struggle to form such a list and I think that's the valid point Roger is driving at.
post #36360 of 46955
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post
 

 

While you are correct that the shoes which are vastly less expensive than AE manage to avoid some "defects" like this, I presume it is often because of inherent differences in their construction.  For a shoe to be vastly less expensive than AE is it a safe assumption that we are referring to shoes constructed using cement, inferior leathers, etc.?  These shoes are also filled with plastic stiffeners between the leather lining and uppers to maintain the shape of inferior components.  As such, they can't be fairly compared.

 

Good quality leather requires time to conform and shape to the last, when they aren't being helped by synthetic components.

 



I wasn't directly comparing them.

I was saying that a manufacturing process that does not allow sufficient time for lasting, resulting in shoes that lose their shape in a gentle breeze is unacceptable at the $350 price point. Unacceptable to me, that is - you are more than welcome to your own view on the subject. But kindly allow me to state my own.

The fact that many cheaper shoes do not exhibit this defect just makes it that much more galling coming from AE, in my view. I was not advancing the proposition that said cheaper shoes are equivalent to or better than AE in all aspects of their materials and construction or in any general sense whatsoever.

At the risk of starting another cycle of misunderstanding I state the following: :nest:
Nothing about MWSs comment was not allowing you to state your opinion, he was simply offering possible reasons for the concerns you mentioned in your first post, and FWIW he is correct as usual. Just be grateful that someone with the knowledge that MWS possesses is willing to provide helpful and insightful comments and any and all comments/inquiries regarding shoe construction.

 

MWS does not comment on other peoples' posts in order to prove them wrong, and himself right, he's just offering his opinion, as were you. You are both entitled to such.

 

Sorry in advance if I misinterpreted the tone of your message, I just thought MWS deserved a vote of confidence for his helpful efforts.

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