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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - Page 2141

post #32101 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWTeal View Post


I remember a simpler time when I thought Eccos and Cole Haans were expensive. smile.gif


yep... that time for me was less than a year ago...  I'm glad to have seen the light though.  My Eccos make me sad when I see them :(

post #32102 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinngiskhaan View Post
 


just curious... why does that remind you of Mark Twain?  Please tell, I'm sure he had something funny to say about statistics.

Quote:

 From Wikipedia:

 

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.

 

The term was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain (among others), who attributed it to the 19th-century British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (1804–1881): "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." However, the phrase is not found in any of Disraeli's works and the earliest known appearances were years after his death. Other coiners have therefore been proposed, and the phrase is often attributed to Twain himself.

post #32103 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincikid View Post
 

Believe me, I have no intention of questioning your stats skills. Neither did I mean to offend you, if I did inadvertently. I would agree though, that it's pretty hard not to land a good job with stats background. 

Nope :)

post #32104 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonmx3 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by chinngiskhaan View Post

 


just curious... why does that remind you of Mark Twain?  Please tell, I'm sure he had something funny to say about statistics.
Quote:
 From Wikipedia:

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also sometimes colloquially used to doubt statistics used to prove an opponent's point.

The term was popularised in the United States by Mark Twain (among others), who attributed it to the 19th-century British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli (1804–1881): "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." However, the phrase is not found in any of Disraeli's works and the earliest known appearances were years after his death. Other coiners have therefore been proposed, and the phrase is often attributed to Twain himself.

cheers, jason, very interesting!
post #32105 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWTeal View Post


Technicality, but I think suede strands were $290 which would make it $100 or 33% more expensive if we are comparing promotions to each other. For the majority of SF members, that's not a lot in absolute value but it's a significant percentage premium. Either way, if I wasn't eyeing some marlows or had no experience in carmina sizing, I'd likely do the same.

 

correct - $290, but for those of us lucky enough to live in Chicago with 10% sales tax, it becomes a comparison between $319 and $389, which makes the decision easy.  Our high sales tax is one of the reasons that I will ocasionally order from Amazon and cross my fingers they send me a decent pair without defects.

 

I love AE, but unless I can get a pair of firsts for $250 or less, I keep finding myself drawn to spending the extra $100 or so to upgrade.  If we're talking AE seconds, then I completely agree with you as there is a huge jump between the $125-150 range that we keep seeing seconds going for and $400.  Frankly, it just underscores the tremendous value AE offers in seconds (calfskin and shell).

post #32106 of 48285
I would like to point out something that is more qualitative than pure money vs. quality. AE has a much larger range of widths than Carmina and many other of the higher-than-AE-end shoe makers (other than of course the bespoke guys). Their lasts are also really good combination lasts, for the most part (even though they don't really bill them as such) much better than, say, that other USA-shoe maker whose "combination" lasts are laughable.

I think that no one can really argue whether Carmina is higher-quality or not, just one look and you can see it in the stitching. And some of their shoes are offered in EE by default, with no normal widths, so yes I'm taking that into account. But at the end of the day, for variety of sizes and fits, not to mention the availability of (relatively) dirt-cheap seconds, AE doesn't have much competition.

For those of you with normal width feet, though, carry on debating.
post #32107 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahab View Post

I would like to point out something that is more qualitative than pure money vs. quality. AE has a much larger range of widths than Carmina and many other of the higher-than-AE-end shoe makers (other than of course the bespoke guys). Their lasts are also really good combination lasts, for the most part (even though they don't really bill them as such) much better than, say, that other USA-shoe maker whose "combination" lasts are laughable.

I think that no one can really argue whether Carmina is higher-quality or not, just one look and you can see it in the stitching. And some of their shoes are offered in EE by default, with no normal widths, so yes I'm taking that into account. But at the end of the day, for variety of sizes and fits, not to mention the availability of (relatively) dirt-cheap seconds, AE doesn't have much competition.

For those of you with normal width feet, though, carry on debating.
I'd like to echo the above. The entire reason I was drawn to Allen Edmonds in the first place comes down to AA widths. I'd love to give Carmina a shot -- NAMOR's navy shell boots make me cry -- but yeah, that's not happening ever. So I hang out in here instead to avoid torturing myself in the Alden and Carmina threads.
post #32108 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdahab View Post

I would like to point out something that is more qualitative than pure money vs. quality. AE has a much larger range of widths than Carmina and many other of the higher-than-AE-end shoe makers (other than of course the bespoke guys). Their lasts are also really good combination lasts, for the most part (even though they don't really bill them as such) much better than, say, that other USA-shoe maker whose "combination" lasts are laughable.

I think that no one can really argue whether Carmina is higher-quality or not, just one look and you can see it in the stitching. And some of their shoes are offered in EE by default, with no normal widths, so yes I'm taking that into account. But at the end of the day, for variety of sizes and fits, not to mention the availability of (relatively) dirt-cheap seconds, AE doesn't have much competition.

For those of you with normal width feet, though, carry on debating.

 

Agreed.  It doesn't matter how cheap I can find C&J or how great the quality is - because they don't fit me.  At the end of the day, if it doesn't fit, it sits in the closet unworn - no matter how pretty the shoe is.  The only reason I've been buying Carmina lately is because the Forest last fits my somewhat wide foot just as well as AE's 5 last.  If I were a true E, EE or A width or had some other sizing irregularity, I would be a 100% AE customer.

post #32109 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinngiskhaan View Post


yep... that time for me was less than a year ago...  I'm glad to have seen the light though.  My Eccos make me sad when I see them frown.gif

Donate them! I'm sure someone could use them.
post #32110 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by motosacto View Post


Completely wrong. Johnston & Murphy and Florsheim both make Goodyear welted shoes that retail for around $180 or so, and go on sale to below $100. They are widely available in the USA. They're definitely not as well made as AE shoes. But they ARE Goodyear welted.

On another note, every time I see statistics used in persuasive arguments, I am reminded of Mark Twain...

Could you please point me at the J&M Goodyear welted shoes priced at $180?

If you took your time to read through the posts last night, you'd see that I was not the first to mention statistics. Btw, I like the quote you are referring to . I must admit though that although statistics has changed a lot since mid-19th century, people's perception didn't.

post #32111 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincikid View Post
 

The price also varies by the quality of the rubber sole (e.g. no-name vs. Vibram) but I'd say $30 sounds reasonable. I am actually curious to try whether this might be something I could do on a weekend. I have a pair of old Loake's for this small DIY project. 

 

P.S. If you a looking for the "high-end shoe world," you might be on a wrong thread. AE is definitely at the left-hand side of the distribution of the quality, Goodyear welted shoes.

 

As it was my post that initially sparked this discussion, I figure it's only fair that I weigh in.

 

 

Taken with no other context, I agree that saying AE is "high-end" may in fact not be true. If you are looking at the spectrum of all shoe makers in the world, AE  would most definitely be to the left of the median. 

 

However, taken in the context that probably 90% of the population doesn't buy shoes above the $150 mark (total assumption, I have no actual stats to back that up), then any shoes above that I would consider "high-end". Does that necessarily mean that shoes above that mark are in fact of higher quality? No; but for the sake of argument let's assume that price is commensurate with quality.

 

The point is that it's all relative. 

 

Most people consider  BMW/Audi/Mercedes to be high-end cars. But what if you compare them to say a Bugatti/Ferrari/Lamborghini? Context! 

 

Since I was introduced to the world of AE, I spend an unhealthy amount of time looking at what shoes people are wearing. I live and work in Washington, DC. Between the lawyers, lobbyists, and government officials, there is no shortage of people who dress up for work every day. The number I've seen wearing AE or other higher priced shoes is definitely the minority.

post #32112 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincikid View Post

Could you please point me at the J&M Goodyear welted shoes priced at $180?
I'd point out these, which my brother-in-law wore for his wedding (he's in a suit maybe three times a year and didn't want to spend AE prices).
post #32113 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by random-adam View Post


I'd point out these, which my brother-in-law wore for his wedding (he's in a suit maybe three times a year and didn't want to spend AE prices).

Thanks, Adam. Interesting, I've never seen a J&M Goodyear welted shoe for less than $250 until now, but I must admit I stopped looking in their direction a while ago. It's made in India though, which explains the cost differential. How do you think they compare to AE?

post #32114 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by random-adam View Post


I'd point out these, which my brother-in-law wore for his wedding (he's in a suit maybe three times a year and didn't want to spend AE prices).

By the way, J&M's own website doesn't mention they are Goodyear welted, whereas Amazon does.

post #32115 of 48285
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincikid View Post

Thanks, Adam. Interesting, I've never seen a J&M Goodyear welted shoe for less than $250 until now, but I must admit I stopped looking in their direction a while ago. It's made in India though, which explains the cost differential. How do you think they compare to AE?
I didn't want to fondle the man's shoes on his wedding day, so I can't speak one way or the other regarding the quality of the leather, but they took a shine and looked good. He was really pleased with the fit; his feet are 13C, and I think he'd never owned comfortable dress shoes before. Wedding planner guy noticed my Park Avenues and didn't say anything about the groom's footwear so maybe the differences are more readily apparent to folks who look harder than I do.
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