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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - Page 1757

post #26341 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincikid View Post

Just thinking aloud here, but perhaps there's less variation in the fit of different lasts at the EEE width.

As an 11 3E I can tell you that that's not my experience . The 5 last is painfully narrow, and 3 is just right, and the 4 is even a little too roomy.
post #26342 of 53304
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Edited by md2010 - 8/5/13 at 1:17am
post #26343 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartmann View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

When a Goodyear-welted shoe is made, the thick leather insole is tacked to the bottom of the last.  The bottom of the insole has the canvas gemming rib attached to the bottom of this leather insole using cement.  The leather upper of the shoe is wrapped around the last and is stitched to the canvas gemming.  The welt is then stitched through the upper to the gemming.  The sole is then stitched to the welt.  Essentially the gemmed insole is the point at which every vital component of the shoe is attached.  Before they sew on the outsole (the part that contacts the ground), they fill the void underneath the insole with cork.  So, if you rip out the insole and can see the cork, then you have removed the foundation of the shoe that everything is bound to.  Since your sole is rigid, the shoe will not immediately fall apart.  The upper and welt is still sewn to the gemming, and the welt is still sewn to the outsole.  However, the gemming is now just sitting there in the cork, and it isn't secured to anything.  As you wear the shoe, it will begin to walk out of shape.  It will become distorted, and it will begin to not fit properly. 

Gemming failure is widely considered the potential "weak-link" of Goodyear-welted shoes.  Gemming failure is what makers of hand-welted shoes claim to be the fundamental problem with Goodyear-welted shoes (hand-welted shoes don't use gemming, they carve a "hold-fast" under the insole instead of gluing on canvas).  The carved hold-fast can't come unglued, whereas gemming can.  That's why hand-welted shoe are theoretically better.  Gemming failure doesn't happen often enough for most people to decide that it isn't ok to use.  However, you have essentially created complete gemming failure by ripping out your insoles. 

I learn a lot about shoes reading this thread. Thanks again MWS!

+ 1 , very useful information, learning everyday.
post #26344 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

You said you can see the cork foot bed, correct?  If you can see the cork foot bed, then you have ripped out the insole, and you have destroyed your shoes.  If there is still a thick piece of leather covering the cork foot bed, then you have only removed the sock liner.  Removing the sock liner isn't a big deal.  Trust me, if you have ripped out the insole from a Goodyear-welted shoe, you have destroyed your shoe. 

Lol. I thought I knew all about shoes(apparently not!). I don’t see the cork foot bed. What I see is a thick leather insole that I thought was cork foot bed. Lol.
I have ripped off the sock liner. Thank god I did. Have that much needed space inside. Thanks you for you in-depth information’s.
And removing the insole underneath would be really hard. I would need professional tools. And in removing the insole one would have literally rip off part if not most of their shoes.

Regs
Ash
post #26345 of 53304
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post #26346 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartmann View Post

I have always really liked the walnut Clifton, and can spot it in a Nordstroms from a section away. I ended up getting a pair of walnut Strands instead, but thought I would get a pair of Cliftons at some point. So when Mr. Grangaard made his offer for MTO shoes, walnut shell Clifton was my choice. I really like these and think the color is just about perfect, and if I could I would replace many of my shoes with walnut shell. The rest of my AE's should be feeling a bit nervous, as I plan to wear these a lot.

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

 

I think they turned out great, with a small exception. You can't see it in the above pictures, but if you look at the left shoe from a different angle you can see what looks like a stray buff mark on the vamp. I couldn't make this mark go away no matter what I tried, but again you can only see it from certain angles. I don't think I want to send these back as other than this they are just about perfect. Just thought I would ask if anyone has seen something similar before. Does anyone know if this is part of how the leather was prepared, or did this happen while making the shoe (which is what it looks like to me)?

 

AppleMark

 

Those look spectacular. Congratulations on the shoes! Unlike other walnut shells I've seen posted, this looks almost exactly like walnut calf. I'm impressed!

post #26347 of 53304

The Mora 2.0 is finally up on the website!

 

post #26348 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartmann View Post

I have always really liked the walnut Clifton, and can spot it in a Nordstroms from a section away. I ended up getting a pair of walnut Strands instead, but thought I would get a pair of Cliftons at some point. So when Mr. Grangaard made his offer for MTO shoes, walnut shell Clifton was my choice. I really like these and think the color is just about perfect, and if I could I would replace many of my shoes with walnut shell. The rest of my AE's should be feeling a bit nervous, as I plan to wear these a lot.
Those are awesome! Wish I knew about these walnut MTOs since I would totally have ordered a pair of Bayfields. I assume these MTOs for walnut shell are no longer offered?

Light shell is tricky because my experience is they tend to darken in time so maybe they will go away... however, that is a risk though.
post #26349 of 53304
post #26350 of 53304

Shaker Heights also looks great.

post #26351 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJTraveler View Post

The Mora 2.0 is finally up on the website!



Very nice...
post #26352 of 53304
Quote:
Originally Posted by md2010 View Post


Lol. I thought I knew all about shoes(apparently not!). I don’t see the cork foot bed. What I see is a thick leather insole that I thought was cork foot bed. Lol.
I have ripped off the sock liner. Thank god I did. Have that much needed space inside. Thanks you for you in-depth information’s.
And removing the insole underneath would be really hard. I would need professional tools. And in removing the insole one would have literally rip off part if not most of their shoes.

Regs
Ash

 

Then I am relieved for you!!!  Indeed, ripping out your insoles would likely need a pair of needle-nose pliers at a minimum.  Removing the sock liner is not a problem.  The sock liner is primarily there to cover up nails that may be present in the shoes of some manufacturers.  Allen Edmonds doesn't drive nails through the insole to secure the heel (I think they may be the only Goodyear-welted manufacturers that don't).  Since all Allen Edmonds are 360 degree welted, the stitching is sufficient to secure the heel zone of the shoe.  Allen Edmonds doesn't use sock liners in their regular line shoes, and in my opinion, they don't need to.  I don't think the comfort difference is enough to warrant it. 

 

For future reference (and to prevent future confusion), here is what you would see if you ripped out your insole from the inside of the shoe:

 

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), default quality

 

This photo is an Allen Edmonds shoe.  The white strip is the canvas gemming that is fixed to the bottom of the insole before the shoe is assembled.  If you rip out your insole, the gemming would remain embedded in the cork because of the stitches underneath it where the upper and welt are sewn (this is called the inseam).  If you had worn your shoes without that strong thick leather insole, the cork and gemming would have started to squash up and become sloppy. 

 

Here is another photo that is useful for illustration:

 

 

This is a cross section of an Allen Edmonds that has been cut in half.  Here you are seeing the cork space under the insole after the insole has been pried up and the cork has been scraped out.  You can see the white canvas gemming is just floating there.  The upper and welt is stitched to it (as you see down in the bottom right corner of the shoe), but the cork is gone for illustration.  This shows why your shoe would have started to distort and lose it's shape if you were to wear them after ripping out the insole.  The cork sets up after being spread in the space, and effective packs all of the space under the insole.  The cork is a thick paste (ground up cork mixed with a thick adhesive), and it helps maintain the integrity of the components during long years of wearing the shoe.  Think of it like the pad and grout that is placed under a tile floor before the tiles are set. 

 

Contrary to popular belief, cork was not originally placed under the insole of Goodyear-welted shoes for comfort reasons.  It is there for the purpose I just described  above.  Most hand-welted and bespoke shoes don't have cork, because they are made with much less space under the insole (the better the shoe maker, the flatter the underside of the shoe).  If there is any space under the insole of a hand-welted shoe, it is generally filled with a thin piece of soft leather or felt.  Marketing has taken hold in recent decades and has started spinning the cork primarily as a comfort measure, and it does indeed create a "custom like" imprint, which is nice, but that is strictly incidental. 

 

Here you see a couple of photos of hand-welted shoes before the sole is stitched on (photos are from Carreducker and DW Frommer):

 

 

 

Notice how flat and level the above photos are compared to this Goodyear-welted shoe (below) before the cork is placed to fill the void (this is an Edward Green shoe, with a wooden shank).  This also shows the canvas gemming very clearly, as well as the inseam stitches (heavy white thread):

 

 

All of this is the consequence of the Industrial Revolution, and the movement from making shoes by hand (hand-welting) to using machines (Goodyear-welting) in the latter half of the 1800's.  These changes are the reasons that makers of hand-welted shoes shun Goodyear-welted shoes.  A machine can't replicate the intricacies of a hand-carved and hand-stitched inseam. 

post #26353 of 53304
There is a new McTavish in dark brown crackle leather.
allenedmonds_shoes_mctavish_dark-brown-crackle_l.jpg
post #26354 of 53304

f you only have two pair of shoes, you should have a black pair 16.gif

post #26355 of 53304

MWS, great post and super informative as always

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