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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - Page 1756

post #26326 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

You said you can see the cork foot bed, correct?  If you can see the cork foot bed, then you have ripped out the insole, and you have destroyed your shoes.  If there is still a thick piece of leather covering the cork foot bed, then you have only removed the sock liner.  Removing the sock liner isn't a big deal.  Trust me, if you have ripped out the insole from a Goodyear-welted shoe, you have destroyed your shoe. 

Hi Mate,

I am understanding a little bit of the gemming now. Can you please explain a bit more how it has destroyed my shoes. I feel no difference. Does this means my shoes will fall apart (the welt/soles or uppers)?
Or how will they affect the reliability ? What can happen form here on words.
Thank mate. Everyday I learn something new in style forum. My shoes are topyed.
post #26327 of 53424
I am curious about the below listing from eBay. Does anyone know why these soles were used on these shoes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALLEN-EDMONDS-Macneil-Navy-Suede-Goodyear-Welt-Oxford-Wingtip-Shoes-10-D-345-/400541107076?pt=US_Men_s_Shoes&hash=item5d421c4384
post #26328 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold Iron View Post

I have not seen them but some on here have mentioned they show up from time to time.

They are still being made for Lands End so there is a chance that one could eventually become a second in your size. You could get on a waiting list from one of the outlets. I am a 10D on the 1 and 5 last and a 9.5D in the rough collection. When I ordered my shell Bayfields I talked to Deborah at length about fit because my black calf and CXL Bayfields in 10D both fit snug, just a bit too snug due to the poron insole. They are OK but at the end of the day walking more than a few miles I looked forward to taking them off. She told me they didn't fit and said she was buying them back from me. And sending me a pair in 10.5D and 10E to see which fit better and I could have my shell ones made in which size I picked. There were no more 10E available in the US so she sent the Malvern in 10E instead, they have a memory foam insole which make them fit smaller like the poron insole. I already knew the 10D Malvern didn't fit me as I had to return a pair last year. The 10.5D much to my surprise fit me perfectly with light to medium weight socks. And crease perfectly also, The 10E Malvern was still tight accross the ball of the foot and loose in the heel. I only paid $100 for the black calf Bayfields a year ago during the 2 for $200 seconds sale and paid $220 for the CXL through the military exchange. The trial seconds in black calf she sent me cost $199 so I purchased them as a replacement for the black calf Bayfields. Lands End is the only place that still carries the CXL Bayfield (D width only) but the 10.5D has not been available since I started looking a few months ago. They just showed up again Friday as being available so I am purchasing them. Even at the full price of $350 I feel they are well worth.

Hey, thanks for the really thorough response, I appreciate it. I'll keep my eyes open for them to pop up as seconds or maybe a pair of used ones (preferably seconds). I wear a 12D in the 7 last.

Thanks again
post #26329 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olifter View Post

I am curious about the below listing from eBay. Does anyone know why these soles were used on these shoes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALLEN-EDMONDS-Macneil-Navy-Suede-Goodyear-Welt-Oxford-Wingtip-Shoes-10-D-345-/400541107076?pt=US_Men_s_Shoes&hash=item5d421c4384

I actually bought this pair and returned it as it was listed as black but ended up being navy blue. It has JR soles. 

post #26330 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by cincikid View Post

I actually bought this pair and returned it as it was listed as black but ended up being navy blue. It has JR soles. 

I should have added that they are seconds, or at least so does say the sticker on the box. I haven't seen any noticeable flow though. 

post #26331 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by md2010 View Post


Hi Mate,

I am understanding a little bit of the gemming now. Can you please explain a bit more how it has destroyed my shoes. I feel no difference. Does this means my shoes will fall apart (the welt/soles or uppers)?
Or how will they affect the reliability ? What can happen form here on words.
Thank mate. Everyday I learn something new in style forum. My shoes are topyed.

 

When a Goodyear-welted shoe is made, the thick leather insole is tacked to the bottom of the last.  The bottom of the insole has the canvas gemming rib attached to the bottom of this leather insole using cement.  The leather upper of the shoe is wrapped around the last and is stitched to the canvas gemming.  The welt is then stitched through the upper to the gemming.  The sole is then stitched to the welt.  Essentially the gemmed insole is the point at which every vital component of the shoe is attached.  Before they sew on the outsole (the part that contacts the ground), they fill the void underneath the insole with cork.  So, if you rip out the insole and can see the cork, then you have removed the foundation of the shoe that everything is bound to.  Since your sole is rigid, the shoe will not immediately fall apart.  The upper and welt is still sewn to the gemming, and the welt is still sewn to the outsole.  However, the gemming is now just sitting there in the cork, and it isn't secured to anything.  As you wear the shoe, it will begin to walk out of shape.  It will become distorted, and it will begin to not fit properly. 

 

Gemming failure is widely considered the potential "weak-link" of Goodyear-welted shoes.  Gemming failure is what makers of hand-welted shoes claim to be the fundamental problem with Goodyear-welted shoes (hand-welted shoes don't use gemming, they carve a "hold-fast" under the insole instead of gluing on canvas).  The carved hold-fast can't come unglued, whereas gemming can.  That's why hand-welted shoe are theoretically better.  Gemming failure doesn't happen often enough for most people to decide that it isn't ok to use.  However, you have essentially created complete gemming failure by ripping out your insoles. 

post #26332 of 53424

I have always really liked the walnut Clifton, and can spot it in a Nordstroms from a section away. I ended up getting a pair of walnut Strands instead, but thought I would get a pair of Cliftons at some point. So when Mr. Grangaard made his offer for MTO shoes, walnut shell Clifton was my choice. I really like these and think the color is just about perfect, and if I could I would replace many of my shoes with walnut shell. The rest of my AE's should be feeling a bit nervous, as I plan to wear these a lot.

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

 

I think they turned out great, with a small exception. You can't see it in the above pictures, but if you look at the left shoe from a different angle you can see what looks like a stray buff mark on the vamp. I couldn't make this mark go away no matter what I tried, but again you can only see it from certain angles. I don't think I want to send these back as other than this they are just about perfect. Just thought I would ask if anyone has seen something similar before. Does anyone know if this is part of how the leather was prepared, or did this happen while making the shoe (which is what it looks like to me)?

 

AppleMark

post #26333 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olifter View Post

I am curious about the below listing from eBay. Does anyone know why these soles were used on these shoes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ALLEN-EDMONDS-Macneil-Navy-Suede-Goodyear-Welt-Oxford-Wingtip-Shoes-10-D-345-/400541107076?pt=US_Men_s_Shoes&hash=item5d421c4384

These were made for Freeman's Sporting Club.  Retailers can ask that the shoe be made a certain way.

 

Here they are in white:

 

http://shop.freemanssportingclub.com/products/ae-x-fsc-mcneil-2 

post #26334 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by shartmann View Post

I have always really liked the walnut Clifton, and can spot it in a Nordstroms from a section away. I ended up getting a pair of walnut Strands instead, but thought I would get a pair of Cliftons at some point. So when Mr. Grangaard made his offer for MTO shoes, walnut shell Clifton was my choice. I really like these and think the color is just about perfect, and if I could I would replace many of my shoes with walnut shell. The rest of my AE's should be feeling a bit nervous, as I plan to wear these a lot.

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

AppleMark

 

 

I think they turned out great, with a small exception. You can't see it in the above pictures, but if you look at the left shoe from a different angle you can see what looks like a stray buff mark on the vamp. I couldn't make this mark go away no matter what I tried, but again you can only see it from certain angles. I don't think I want to send these back as other than this they are just about perfect. Just thought I would ask if anyone has seen something similar before. Does anyone know if this is part of how the leather was prepared, or did this happen while making the shoe (which is what it looks like to me)?

 

AppleMark

Try some reno.  I like the Clifton a lot.  I have them in brown calf and black shark.

post #26335 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by polojock615 View Post

These were made for Freeman's Sporting Club.  Retailers can ask that the shoe be made a certain way.

 

Here they are in white:

 

http://shop.freemanssportingclub.com/products/ae-x-fsc-mcneil-2 

Here's the webpage for the shoes in question: http://shop.freemanssportingclub.com/products/ae-x-fsc-mcneil

They still can be bought from Freeman's Sporting Club for $345 as firsts.

post #26336 of 53424

My guess is that all the JR soles used by AE are used for shell.  They have scratched out "__________ SPORT by ALLEN EDMONDS"  I guess the party wanted JR soles and AE decided to reach into their JR bin and didn't notice or care.

post #26337 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by polojock615 View Post

Try some reno.  I like the Clifton a lot.  I have them in brown calf and black shark.

I used Reno a few time, and even some RenoMat, but it didn't seem to change the visibility of this blemish at all. Maybe I'll try to be more aggressive with the RenoMat, I put that on lightly.

I've seen pictures of your shark Cliftons, and they are awesome!
post #26338 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyBoy920 View Post

This is the reason AE needs to make a burgundy/merlot strand. NEED!!!!

MTO??
post #26339 of 53424
delete
Edited by md2010 - 8/5/13 at 1:19am
post #26340 of 53424
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

When a Goodyear-welted shoe is made, the thick leather insole is tacked to the bottom of the last.  The bottom of the insole has the canvas gemming rib attached to the bottom of this leather insole using cement.  The leather upper of the shoe is wrapped around the last and is stitched to the canvas gemming.  The welt is then stitched through the upper to the gemming.  The sole is then stitched to the welt.  Essentially the gemmed insole is the point at which every vital component of the shoe is attached.  Before they sew on the outsole (the part that contacts the ground), they fill the void underneath the insole with cork.  So, if you rip out the insole and can see the cork, then you have removed the foundation of the shoe that everything is bound to.  Since your sole is rigid, the shoe will not immediately fall apart.  The upper and welt is still sewn to the gemming, and the welt is still sewn to the outsole.  However, the gemming is now just sitting there in the cork, and it isn't secured to anything.  As you wear the shoe, it will begin to walk out of shape.  It will become distorted, and it will begin to not fit properly. 

Gemming failure is widely considered the potential "weak-link" of Goodyear-welted shoes.  Gemming failure is what makers of hand-welted shoes claim to be the fundamental problem with Goodyear-welted shoes (hand-welted shoes don't use gemming, they carve a "hold-fast" under the insole instead of gluing on canvas).  The carved hold-fast can't come unglued, whereas gemming can.  That's why hand-welted shoe are theoretically better.  Gemming failure doesn't happen often enough for most people to decide that it isn't ok to use.  However, you have essentially created complete gemming failure by ripping out your insoles. 

I learn a lot about shoes reading this thread. Thanks again MWS!
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