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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - Page 1214

post #18196 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Shoes1 View Post

That's uncalled for and inappropriate.  I cannot believe you would speak to anyone in this manner, let alone the CEO of a company who came here as a guest to clear up a misconception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

Agree.  Especially since the issue seems to be caused by not fitting the wearer rather than being an actual defect with the shoe, at least from anecdotal evidence that people are buying the shoes with the bowing problem being present from the beginning.  Not all lasts fit all types of feet. 

Eh, I see your points however, if you step into a public forum, you should be prepared to encounter any matter of public comment. Does it make the poster's comment unprofessional? I am not saying; I can see it being a joke. For someone to be upset by that would make me wonder if they are considering the source. Public forum...anonymous posting....say whatever you want. For someone to take any comment with any more weight than that is also a problem....just my thoughts....
post #18197 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeharo View Post



Eh, I see your points however, if you step into a public forum, you should be prepared to encounter any matter of public comment. Does it make the poster's comment unprofessional? I am not saying; I can see it being a joke. For someone to be upset by that would make me wonder if they are considering the source. Public forum...anonymous posting....say whatever you want. For someone to take any comment with any more weight than that is also a problem....just my thoughts....

 

Stick around for awhile and you will see that the posters in this thread address each other with a respect and civility that is not found in other SF threads.  Rudeness and disrespect are frequently called out as inappropriate in this thread.  And, whether CoolArrow was joking or venting about his grievance (see below), he was rude and inappropriate considering the context of the AE CEO taking the time to post in this thread.

 

I, for one, think it is pretty cool that the CEO of AE came here to post and do not want one disgruntled customer to make him think he is not welcome here at any time.  Especially when that disgruntled customer is upset because he was not able to exchange the seconds he bought at Nordstrom Rack after wearing them for a year and a half before noticing a bowing/gaping issue.

post #18198 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeharo View Post



Eh, I see your points however, if you step into a public forum, you should be prepared to encounter any matter of public comment. Does it make the poster's comment unprofessional? I am not saying; I can see it being a joke. For someone to be upset by that would make me wonder if they are considering the source. Public forum...anonymous posting....say whatever you want. For someone to take any comment with any more weight than that is also a problem....just my thoughts....

 

Your point is definitely valid to a certain degree.  I wasn't personally offended, and I doubt Paul would be either.  I was really responding to what I percieve to be an incorrect or invalid statement.  If someone is joking, then using an emoticon or some other form of punctuation goes a long way.  That's why they are there.  A blunt message in all caps with a period sounds like an ultimatum, which is inappropriate, especially given that the problem he is asking to be fixed may not be AE's fault to begin with. 

 

As for the last statement, that is a double edged sword.  Don't you want to be taken seriously?  I personally don't like the sound of Paul stepping into what we try to maintain as a polite, open, learning environment only to have his head bitten off the first time he does so.  I'd rather him feel welcome to come back and engage rather than feeling like he is just going to end up having to address issues that may not even be AE's fault.  All too often I get annoyed by people whose first posts in StyleForum are prefaced with things like "go easy on me" or "don't yell at me" or something like that.  Obviously people ask questions that could easily be figured out by a little bit of independent research, and that can be frustrating to see threads getting clogged up by the same old answers being posed over and over again.  However, many also take advantage of the anonymous posting and lose their common courtesy, thus making the environment seem hostile.  Many members seem to thrive on lurking around waiting for a comment by a less experienced poster so that they can pounce and show off their "knowledge." 

post #18199 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

Agree.  Especially since the issue seems to be caused by not fitting the wearer rather than being an actual defect with the shoe, at least from anecdotal evidence that people are buying the shoes with the bowing problem being present from the beginning.  Not all lasts fit all types of feet. 
I actually thought it was a defect more than a fit issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by calidist View Post

Probably 1 and 7, though the Barrie is a very unique last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwaker View Post

I'll have to explore the 7-last ... I've already got a pair of Leeds and have found it to be more narrow and longer heel to arch than my 975 ( 8.5D 1-last vs 8D Barrie).

Does anyone else have any input on this? I don't have any Alden shoes yet or even Barrie lasted, but I always under the impression that Barrie lasted shoes were wide. In my experience, 7 lasted shoes are narrow and I feel they are even more narrow than their 5 last counterparts.
post #18200 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston S. View Post


I actually thought it was a defect more than a fit issue.

Does anyone else have any input on this? I don't have any Alden shoes yet or even Barrie lasted, but I always under the impression that Barrie lasted shoes were wide. In my experience, 7 lasted shoes are narrow and I feel they are even more narrow than their 5 last counterparts.

 

The truth is, that hasn't really been figured out.  I have seen Paul's engagement in another thread  a while back where he touched on it, and said that it could arise from a shoe being stored too long in a shoe box laying on it's side, or not being kept with shoe trees.  It was strictly conjecture, however. 

 

I have asked questions about it, and the only responses I seem to get are that the bowing is present when people buy the shoes, rather than something that develops over time.  I have also heard of a person or two that figured out that changing sizes fixed the problem.  The issue really is that it is speculation regarding what is causing the problem.  I'm not saying it isn't a defect, but there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that it isn't.  I don't think AE has changed the way they are manufactering their 5-lasted shoes, and if it is a defect with the leather hide, it seems quite odd that it would show up so frequently as bowing around the throat of the shoe.  Why not somewhere else in the shoe?  The pieces of the shoe are all cut from a single hide, so if a section gets cut and used and later shows up to be defective, it should happen in other parts of the shoe just from a standpoint of chance.  

 

I think that the high degree of exposure that AE and the other high-end manufacterers are getting from StyleForum and AAAC due to the current trend of "made in USA" and the in-fashion status of timeless men's wear has simply brought to the forefront issues that may not actually be anything new.  In other words, a guy in 1990 who went out and bought a pair of Park Avenues that seemed to fit well and were comfortable, may not have thought anything of the throat of the shoe having some extra "room."  Instead, he would have decided the shoes were comfortable, bought them, bought the recommended shoe care supplies or gone to his local pharmacy and purchased some Kiwi products, and lived happily ever after.  Now, due to the trends and exposure that is taking place, people are stressing over details that haven't always been a concern.  If you could travel back in time a few decades, I bet you would find shoes with some color inconsistencies, some occasional off stitching, and perhaps a bowing issue or two, but the people would be walking around happily going about their business. 

 

No doubt that the increased exposure and trends has led these companies to increase production, speed up their processes, and as a result some QC issues have been more apparent as a result.  I am not discounting that at all.  I just think a middle ground has to exist here.  Sorry for the long post.   

post #18201 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

The truth is, that hasn't really been figured out.  I have seen Paul's engagement in another thread  a while back where he touched on it, and said that it could arise from a shoe being stored too long in a shoe box laying on it's side, or not being kept with shoe trees.  It was strictly conjecture, however. 

I have asked questions about it, and the only responses I seem to get are that the bowing is present when people buy the shoes, rather than something that develops over time.  I have also heard of a person or two that figured out that changing sizes fixed the problem.  The issue really is that it is speculation regarding what is causing the problem.  I'm not saying it isn't a defect, but there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that it isn't. 
This is from my general observation, but I thought some people were able to resolve the bowing issues, by getting another pair of the same shoes. I do see that some people can ask for several pairs of the same shoes and still experience bowing though. Personally I have two pairs of 5 lasted shoes (Strands and Cambridges). I have a little bowing with my Cambridges, but not with my Strands, which could imply there is a fit issue or defect in manufacturing.
post #18202 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston S. View Post


This is from my general observation, but I thought some people were able to resolve the bowing issues, by getting another pair of the same shoes. I do see that some people can ask for several pairs of the same shoes and still experience bowing though. Personally I have two pairs of 5 lasted shoes (Strands and Cambridges). I have a little bowing with my Cambridges, but not with my Strands, which could imply there is a fit issue or defect in manufacturing.

 

Yeah, you are seeing the reason that it is such a complex issue and not easily figured out.  Also, shoes made on the same last fitting the same way isn't a guaranteed thing, it is just a good rule of thumb.  Different stitching styles, different leathers, and variance in the number/size of pieces of leather involved in making a shoe will impact the end result.  They are using the same lasting machine, exerting the same amount of force pulling on the leather, but the leather and stitching is different and thus will stretch differently in different places.  Did I over use the word different? biggrin.gif

post #18203 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSizzle View Post

That picture was actually taken inside (my bedroom). It captures the difference between walnut and bourbon, but it doesn't truly capture either as well as the outdoor images above. If you really want an outdoor picture of walnut and bourbon, I can try to snap a picture tomorrow.

 

Here's the follow up for you, zerostyle, but it's not very sunny today...

 

(Taking the picture also makes me realize how much I need to clean up the toecap on my walnut Strands.)

 

 

post #18204 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

Yeah, you are seeing the reason that it is such a complex issue and not easily figured out.  Also, shoes made on the same last fitting the same way isn't a guaranteed thing, it is just a good rule of thumb.  Different stitching styles, different leathers, and variance in the number/size of pieces of leather involved in making a shoe will impact the end result.  They are using the same lasting machine, exerting the same amount of force pulling on the leather, but the leather and stitching is different and thus will stretch differently in different places.  Did I over use the word different? biggrin.gif

I don't know what the reason for bowing/not bowing is, but there is absolutely variance in leather and how it is stretched over the last. It is done by hand, with a specialized set of pliers, and it is done by applying pressure at different points, not all at once (watch one of their videos to see what I mean). So there is no way that each piece of leather is having exactly the same forces applied to it, just as there's no way each piece of leather is the same to start with.

Having said this, AE uses the same general method as other Goodyear welted shoe makers. It's curious that they would have more incidences of bowing, if it is in fact true. It would be interesting to compare the 212-step process with someone like C&J, or even JL, and see what differences there really are. Not sure if anyone has access to that, though.
post #18205 of 46921

Regarding the bowing/gaping issue, you are both right that it is sometimes a fit issue and sometimes a defect.  Some feet just do not fit well into the 5 last and, for whatever reason, it seems like virtually all of the bowing/gaping involves the Park Avenue.  Regarding a potential defect, Money Well Spent correct remembers a post by AE's CEO regarding the bowing issue on AAAC.  The post attributed it to a number of factors, including the amount of time the shoe is left to rest on the last and the amount of time it has been sitting on a store shelf without shoe trees.  This is why one piece of advice for dealing with bowing/gaping issues is to have a pair shipped directly from the factory.  If I recall correctly, the CEO also advised that AE was leaving the shoes on the lasts longer to deal with this issue.

 

Just my personal observation, but I think the majority of the gaping/bowing we see are fit issues involving the wrong size or a low volume foot for which the 5 last does not work very well.  It seems like we frequently see posters that solved the issue by getting a different size.  There are also a fair number of individuals who have exchanged shoes numerous times with the bowing/gaping issue occurring in each pair.  Conversely, I can only think of a handful of instances where the poster claims the issue was resolved by requesting a different pair in the exact same size.  Cold Iron comes to mind and maybe a few other individuals over the last few years.

post #18206 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmdsimpson View Post


I don't know what the reason for bowing/not bowing is, but there is absolutely variance in leather and how it is stretched over the last. It is done by hand, with a specialized set of pliers, and it is done by applying pressure at different points, not all at once (watch one of their videos to see what I mean). So there is no way that each piece of leather is having exactly the same forces applied to it, just as there's no way each piece of leather is the same to start with.

Having said this, AE uses the same general method as other Goodyear welted shoe makers. It's curious that they would have more incidences of bowing, if it is in fact true. It would be interesting to compare the 212-step process with someone like C&J, or even JL, and see what differences there really are. Not sure if anyone has access to that, though.

 

Yeah, I left an incomplete thought on the lasting there...  The equal force that I was referring to is the forepart lasting machine.  The sides are lasted using lasting pliers, and will inherently have more variance.  The heels are also lasted by machine, and thus should be equal force. 

post #18207 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Shoes1 View Post

Regarding the bowing/gaping issue, you are both right that it is sometimes a fit issue and sometimes a defect.  Some feet just do not fit well into the 5 last and, for whatever reason, it seems like virtually all of the bowing/gaping involves the Park Avenue.  Regarding a potential defect, Money Well Spent correct remembers a post by AE's CEO regarding the bowing issue on AAAC.  The post attributed it to a number of factors, including the amount of time the shoe is left to rest on the last and the amount of time it has been sitting on a store shelf without shoe trees.  This is why one piece of advice for dealing with bowing/gaping issues is to have a pair shipped directly from the factory.  If I recall correctly, the CEO also advised that AE was leaving the shoes on the lasts longer to deal with this issue.

 

Just my personal observation, but I think the majority of the gaping/bowing we see are fit issues involving the wrong size or a low volume foot for which the 5 last does not work very well.  It seems like we frequently see posters that solved the issue by getting a different size.  There are also a fair number of individuals who have exchanged shoes numerous times with the bowing/gaping issue occurring in each pair.  Conversely, I can only think of a handful of instances where the poster claims the issue was resolved by requesting a different pair in the exact same size.  Cold Iron comes to mind and maybe a few other individuals over the last few years.

 

Thanks for responding, I was driving myself crazy trying to find where I had read that, and I thought it was AAAC.  Do you remember which thread it is?

post #18208 of 46921
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

Thanks for responding, I was driving myself crazy trying to find where I had read that, and I thought it was AAAC.  Do you remember which thread it is?

When people keep having the issue, and others never do, it can make you wonder whether it's truly the shoe or the wearer. In some cases, at least, I'd lean to the latter and conjecture that it could be related to the height of ones arch relative to that accommodated by the shoe. A mismatch could be causing the twisting of material, but I think sizing and some manufacturing mishaps cause other cases of bowing (or at least compound these).
post #18209 of 46921
I agree that it has always looked to me like people are wearing the wrong size with this bowing problem. What I've always felt caused it is people not knowing that they need a narrower shoe, usually because they have a low instep. So you lace it all the way shut, and then it sort of just collapses on top of the foot, causing the sides to flex out. It's the opposite problem of people with high insteps, where the balmoral can't lace all the way shut.

Basically, the cause is people who haven't tried, or can't be bothered to try, different widths, or people who really want deals on D sized shoes (easier to find deals on) to fit them. In my opinion, Allen Edmonds has solved the bowing problem already, because it offers a full range of widths, unlike so many other shoe companies.

This is coming from someone who wears 9EEE/9.5EEE. Width is king.
post #18210 of 46921
I've seen too many Allen Edmonds shoes, brand new on the shelf, where the opening looked more like a figure 8 than a nice, smooth oval. Not a fit issue there. It's something they need to address, period.
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