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Allen Edmonds Appreciation Thread - reviews, pictures, sizing, etc... - Page 4267  

post #63991 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by RitchieBro View Post
 


I just get aggravated with those who turn this forum into a bitch, moan and complain thread, when this is supposed to be an Allen Edmonds "APPRECIATION" thread! Appreciate what is good about the company, and the vastly positive things they are doing, which far outweigh the nit picking negatives I see for the most part here. I submit, that for the price, which will soon be $279 for a lot of great shoes for RDA (Strand  among them) to $327 for the rest of the line for the most part during RDA, you can't get a better shoe bang for the buck.

But instead we get the constant flow of "my seconds have a welt gap of 1/8" and aren't completely closed, should I send them back or keep them", or "my $127 Patriots have a wrinkle, should I keep them" BS. Geez! They are seconds for a reason! The lion's share of first quality shoes are pretty damn nice, and no other company is even trying to make available the different sizes that AE is is offering for those with very small, very big or narrow or wide feet. So, I for one am saying Bravo, Allen Edmonds, keep up the good work, and keep striving for the improvements you are seeking.

 

This, so much this. That's why I think that the real question is whether AE is honest about what they say about the quality of their footwear, not whether they do this or that specific thing. And (unfortunately) goodyear welted generally is seen as "handmade" by "everyone". I think it would be very hard for AE to not be on that bandwagon if they want to keep selling shoes. Obviously their marketing will sell you "tradition" and "Made in USA" and "craftsmanship". That's about the only thing (except for image and name) that sells higher cost stuff to a broader audience nowadays, where everyone just wants cheap, cheap, cheap.

 

I for one APPRECIATE Allen Edmonds for their EEE shoes, when not many other people will even offer those online, AE even puts them in brick and mortar stores. Arguably not in Canada (unfortunately), but since they don't have their own stores here, we're at the mercy of local chains.

 

I APPRECIATE Allen Edmonds for having a Shoebank, where they sell 2nds. Many other big brands have "Outlet stores" that sell stuff cheaper but they don't tell you that it's 2nds or that they actually make runs with lower quality materials just for the outlets.

post #63992 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post



I APPRECIATE Allen Edmonds for having a Shoebank, where they sell 2nds. Many other big brands have "Outlet stores" that sell stuff cheaper but they don't tell you that it's 2nds or that they actually make runs with lower quality materials just for the outlets.

I also appreciate their *actual* outlet stores.

So-called "outlet malls" may have actually sold previous-season or second-quality merchandise at one time, but not since I've known about them. All the outlet malls I've been to have stores with deliberately-produced crap-quality items playing off the reputation of the regular brand: Brooks Brothers, J.Crew, GAP, etc.

Which other brands/manufacturers even have outlet stores that sell actual second-quality merchandise rather than deliberately-produced low-quality stuff?
post #63993 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by phsiao08 View Post

Saw a pair of Hopkinson (the Park Aves on the new 201 last) in store today.  It's the left one and on the right in the Park Ave for comparison. Take a look! 

The indy line looks great. How is the leather and overall quality of these compare to the park avenue?
Edited by vmss - 9/20/15 at 7:17pm
post #63994 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by harlequin782 View Post

I'm in the same boat as you...I can't stand when you try to have an objective civilized discussion, involving constructive criticism, and people retort with some ignorant-asshole, personal attack type comment, or snide comment, just because they disagree, or don't want to hear what you're saying...hell, I made it be known months ago that I thought this thread has become clogged with questions about flaws on second hand shoes that have been purchased for $10.00 off EBay or Burlington CF or Marshalls or wherever. But I wouldn't personally insult those people...I just ignore the posts I don't want to read and move on now. But to be clear, I'm not even bitching about flaws...Flaws and mistakes on second hand/reject shoes are one thing...routinely cutting corners across the board as a part of your accepted manufacturing process on firsts, to the detriment to the quality of the final product, all while raising retail prices every year and a half is something different entirely, in my book. But I'm assuming the cheaper leathers and cardboard heels are par for the course for a shoemaker at this price point according to Moneywellspent (I believe that was his name)...and I'm far from an AE hater, so that's actually good to hear, I guess

You do get other brands in similar price range that use better materials in their shoe construction. I have magnanni that offers stacked leather heels, decent leather quality and outsole for around $325, you do find other brands in this price range using better materials.
post #63995 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tharkun View Post



I APPRECIATE Allen Edmonds for having a Shoebank, where they sell 2nds. Many other big brands have "Outlet stores" that sell stuff cheaper but they don't tell you that it's 2nds or that they actually make runs with lower quality materials just for the outlets.

I also appreciate their *actual* outlet stores.

So-called "outlet malls" may have actually sold previous-season or second-quality merchandise at one time, but not since I've known about them. All the outlet malls I've been to have stores with deliberately-produced crap-quality items playing off the reputation of the regular brand: Brooks Brothers, J.Crew, GAP, etc.

Which other brands/manufacturers even have outlet stores that sell actual second-quality merchandise rather than deliberately-produced low-quality stuff?

I guess you have to produce a lot of poorly crafted items to have such succesful seconds stores....not sure that is a brag about item.

That being said I love the seconds I have smile.gif
post #63996 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna75 View Post

I guess you have to produce a lot of poorly crafted items to have such succesful seconds stores....not sure that is a brag about item.

That being said I love the seconds I have smile.gif

In fairness, AE operates, I think, 9 outlet stores across the USA. Compare that to how many stockists AE has - perhaps in close to 1,000? My point is that AE seconds are probably not quite so ubiquitous as those of us in this thread might think. Or maybe I'm just uninformed.

Also, I know some in this thread have major complaints about AE's quality, but I'm not one of them. I have purchased 9 pairs of seconds, and every time I'm hard-pressed to find the flaw that made them seconds.

But my major point in the post you quoted was that AE's outlets are an actual source of bargains (i.e., "buy the real thing at a fraction of the price"), whereas every other so-called "outlet" simply sells purpose-made low-quality items that offer no extra value compared to their mainline store. This also begs the question: what do all these other retailers do with their second-quality merchandise? Is the proportion of second-quality production really so low that they don't have a systematic way of getting rid of it?
post #63997 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmss View Post


The indy line looks great. How is the leather and overall quality of these compare to the park avenue?

 

 

what's funny is that I think the park aves look better than the indy version lol

post #63998 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna75 View Post


I guess you have to produce a lot of poorly crafted items to have such succesful seconds stores....not sure that is a brag about item.

That being said I love the seconds I have smile.gif

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post


In fairness, AE operates, I think, 9 outlet stores across the USA. Compare that to how many stockists AE has - perhaps in close to 1,000? My point is that AE seconds are probably not quite so ubiquitous as those of us in this thread might think. Or maybe I'm just uninformed.

Also, I know some in this thread have major complaints about AE's quality, but I'm not one of them. I have purchased 9 pairs of seconds, and every time I'm hard-pressed to find the flaw that made them seconds.

But my major point in the post you quoted was that AE's outlets are an actual source of bargains (i.e., "buy the real thing at a fraction of the price"), whereas every other so-called "outlet" simply sells purpose-made low-quality items that offer no extra value compared to their mainline store. This also begs the question: what do all these other retailers do with their second-quality merchandise? Is the proportion of second-quality production really so low that they don't have a systematic way of getting rid of it?

 

Just for perspective, AE makes around/over 2500 shoes per day. 

post #63999 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by garland View Post



Just for perspective, AE makes around/over 2500 shoes per day. 

Is that really true? How many shoes do they produce yearly. That is mass production at its best.
post #64000 of 70737
On the Hopkinson... I don't understand why the tongue stitch at the base of the throat is so wide in comparison to most (including AE) oxford laced shoes.

It's nearly as wide as the eyelets, and draws attention to itself.
post #64001 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealthActuary View Post


what's funny is that I think the park aves look better than the indy version lol

I think that the timeless classic collection are in their own league. Their timeless styles don't put them in competition with other brands, while the indy already going in a more fashion forward trend or refinement where the tendency comes to compare them to the likes of c and j, carmina,AS etc
post #64002 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kahuna75 View Post


I guess you have to produce a lot of poorly crafted items to have such succesful seconds stores....not sure that is a brag about item.

That being said I love the seconds I have smile.gif


Seconds aren't poorly crafted. Just not up to exacting standards.

 

Returns? Seconds. Leather doesn't take dye evenly? Seconds. A single, missed stitch or slightly misaligned piece? Seconds. Someone walked in them too and scuffed the soles much for them to look new anymore? Seconds. A trainee using the burnisher learning the job? Seconds.

 

Lots of what makes a shoe a second might be so minor that normal wearing and an occasional scuff would be worse.

 

That said, I've seen one or two fugly seconds. But we have all seen lots that aren't so bad. I own a pair that has slight color imbalance from one shoe to the other as one bit of upper absorbs the dye and polish more than the other -- stupid cows just can't all grow the same skin, I guess, so one's slightly more porous. My second pair of seconds is nearly perfect. I'd not have sent them back had I paid full price.

 

 

On a different tack...

 

No matter what the discussion here seems to think about Goodyear welting not being hand made, there's an assload of hand work in these shoes. Including the welting, which is stitched on a machine but cannot be done with unskilled labor. In fact, a lot of hand-made handmade shoes are goodyear welt, even if the thread is pulled by hand not run on a machine, as it's a perfectly workable, durable, quality method for attaching a sole.

 

Other items, like how the uppers are cut and stitched together, are done on a sewing machine. Doesn't mean it isn't hand work. And it takes skill. And, of course, stretching them over the last, corking, creating the heels, forming and burnishing the soles, and all the finishing are entirely hand processes. There might be a buffing wheel or some specialty tools involved, but it cannot be automated so untrained hands can do it.

 

Strangely, I don't think people have considered the leather market of late. Notice how damned expensive beef has been the last 2 years? We had a huge drought from north Texas on up into most of our beef producing country, and herds dropped off. It's only now recovering, but herds in North America were at historical lows for a few years, and many were sold early or had to be fed on feed lots. It takes a couple of years at least to reform herds since it's minimum 18 months to market for a cow.

 

So, a lot fewer hides since there are fewer cows, and possibly the quality is generally less. Of COURSE the leather market is tough.

 

I never even considered it until that offhand comment earlier in this forum.

post #64003 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose22 View Post

No matter what the discussion here seems to think about Goodyear welting not being hand made, there's an assload of hand work in these shoes. Including the welting, which is stitched on a machine but cannot be done with unskilled labor. In fact, a lot of hand-made handmade shoes are goodyear welt, even if the thread is pulled by hand not run on a machine, as it's a perfectly workable, durable, quality method for attaching a sole.

Other items, like how the uppers are cut and stitched together, are done on a sewing machine. Doesn't mean it isn't hand work. And it takes skill. And, of course, stretching them over the last, corking, creating the heels, forming and burnishing the soles, and all the finishing are entirely hand processes. There might be a buffing wheel or some specialty tools involved, but it cannot be automated so untrained hands can do it.

There are differences between benchgrade, handgrade, and handmade shoes.
post #64004 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose22 View Post


On a different tack...

No matter what the discussion here seems to think about Goodyear welting not being hand made, there's an assload of hand work in these shoes. Including the welting, which is stitched on a machine but cannot be done with unskilled labor. In fact, a lot of hand-made handmade shoes are goodyear welt, even if the thread is pulled by hand not run on a machine, as it's a perfectly workable, durable, quality method for attaching a sole.

Other items, like how the uppers are cut and stitched together, are done on a sewing machine. Doesn't mean it isn't hand work. And it takes skill. And, of course, stretching them over the last, corking, creating the heels, forming and burnishing the soles, and all the finishing are entirely hand processes. There might be a buffing wheel or some specialty tools involved, but it cannot be automated so untrained hands can do it.

I don't think most people are implying that it doesn't take skill, and you are correct that the shoes are hand guided while using the machines. Certainly there is a learning curve.

But, it is still helpful to differentiate between a truly hand-made shoe vs. A Goodyear-welted one because of the inherent differences. True, Goodyear-welted shoes aren't going down a conveyor belt with robotic machine arms reaching out to perform assembly steps the way modern cemented shoe factories do. But, they utilize machinery for every step in the process. Human hands being on the shoe doesn't equate them to hand-made the way that a pair made with basic shoemaker's hand tools are. And, the learning curve on Goodyear machinery is child's play compared to learning how to make a shoe with hand tools.
post #64005 of 70737
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyWellSpent View Post

But, they utilize machinery for every step in the process. Human hands being on the shoe doesn't equate them to hand-made the way that a pair made with basic shoemaker's hand tools are. And, the learning curve on Goodyear machinery is child's play compared to learning how to make a shoe with hand tools.

 

But a goodyear welt is a goodyear welt.  Does it really make it a better bit of construction if some guy pulls the thread with his hands as opposed to having a machine do it?

 

I go back to sewing the uppers, pinking, or brogueing. Is it better if someone punches with a punch instead of stamping with a dye? Or is it better if cut by scissors or on a pinking wheel? If someone uses a sewing machine instead of hand stitching the uppers, are they better?

 

Seriously, it's a balance of doing the SAME PROCESSES with the most mechanical help possible. Unless you're adding custom work, which requires a unique pattern, what's the problem with helping speed the process through an identical construction method? If the shoe is lower quality, it certainly isn't because someone has used a machine to help them with the stitching.

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