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Hey lawyer types (question)...

post #1 of 35
Thread Starter 
My car was towed today for being parked in the same spot for 72 hours or more. The issue that I have with this is that there isn't a single sign anywhere saying that I cannot park in the street for more than 72 hours. I was away for 5 days and parked on the street right outside our apartment where I've parked for 4-5 days at a time many times during the 2.5 years we've lived here. This will cost me about $350. What can I do? How legal is it to tow a car citing a city ordinance that isn't posted anywhere? How am I supposed to know about this law? I asked this to a police officer and the towing company over the phone and both literally said "I don't know, now that I think about it it doesn't seem right." Thanks.
post #2 of 35
I would be surprised if even CA required cities to post their city ordinances.
post #3 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azlawstudent View Post
I would be surprised if even CA required cities to post their city ordinances.

Fine, but how is a layman supposed to know these rules? There are no signs anywhere. How is that legal/legit/fair?
post #4 of 35
Uh... how are you supposed to know that credit card fraud is illegal? I don't think you need a lawyer type to tell you that ignorance of the law is no excuse.
post #5 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JD_May View Post
Uh... how are you supposed to know that credit card fraud is illegal? I don't think you need a lawyer type to tell you that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Ugh. "Ignorance of the law" is the biggest crock of shit when it comes to something like this. I lived in SF for 17 years and there are street signs everywhere for everything. Getting a ticket or getting towed there was embarrassing. Compare this with a suburban town where there are no street signs anywhere. How am I supposed to know some obscure city ordinance? Should I read and memorize every law? You're making this sound like it's some obvious thing that people should just know. "Yeah, everyone knows you can't park there for more than 72 hours!" No.
post #6 of 35
It's in the City Municipal Code. The only reason I know where to find it is because I come across it looking up various Cities Parking codes per zoning land use for work. That's most likely going to be their defense and I know it sucks and the common person is not going to know where to find it or have the time to look up such trivial matters, but it is there.
post #7 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moo View Post
Fine, but how is a layman supposed to know these rules? There are no signs anywhere. How is that legal/legit/fair?

I have no idea about your specific situation, but it's generally accepted that people are responsible for following laws, regardless of whether they are aware of them. Otherwise, ignorance would be a defense to everything.

Anyway, you drive a car on public roads and park it in public spaces; it seems reasonable to hold you responsible for acquainting yourself with local parking rules before availing yourself of the privilege.

It's like with your socks-and-shorts outfit: you should've known better.
post #8 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC2823 View Post
It's in the City Municipal Code. The only reason I know where to find it is because I come across it looking up various Cities Parking codes per zoning land use for work. That's most likely going to be their defense and I know it sucks and the common person is not going to know where to find it or have the time to look up such trivial matters, but it is there.
Thanks for being a human and understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
I have no idea about your specific situation, but it's generally accepted that people are responsible for following laws, regardless of whether they are aware of them. Otherwise, ignorance would be a defense to everything. Anyway, even if the general principle didn't apply, your case wouldn't warrant much sympathy in my book. You drive a car on public roads and park it in public spaces; it seems reasonable to hold you responsible for acquainting yourself with local parking rules before availing yourself of the privilege.
So everything is put under the same umbrella? If there was a law in a foreign country that said that if you looked at a goat for more than 5 seconds you had to pay a fine, and you were caught looking at a goat, would you not be upset? Would you say "oh, of course, silly me, I should have known this obscure and ridiculous law" and paid the find happily? My situation is on this level, and you're treating it like it's something people should know matter-of-factly. How is a layman supposed to know this obscure law? Why would I even think that this law existed?
post #9 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Moo View Post
So everything is put under the same umbrella? If there was a law in a foreign country that said that if you looked at a goat for more than 5 seconds you had to pay a fine, and you were caught looking at a goat, would you not be upset? Would you say "oh, of course, silly me, I should have known this obscure and ridiculous law" and paid the find happily? My situation is on this level, and you're treating it like it's something people should know. How is a layman supposed to know this obscure law? Why would I even think that this law existed?

Well, your mistake doesn't render you a dangerous criminal or even a bad citizen, but there's no other way to run the system other than to hold people responsible for knowing the law. After all, anybody can claim ignorance.

Anyway, I'm sure you are familiar with the principle that driving on public roads is a privilege, making you responsible for knowing traffic rules, posted and unposted. There is no sign anywhere explaining that red means 'stop'.
post #10 of 35
It sucks dude. I highly doubt you'll get anywhere trying to fight it, but if you so desire, knock yourself out.

Just about everyone I know has learned about these rules, either through first-hand experience or by hearing of similar stories from friends/colleagues.

BTW, I once parked my car in the same spot in SF for ~6 months. I wasn't towed, but the radio was stolen.
post #11 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Well, your mistake doesn't render you a dangerous criminal or even a bad citizen, but there's no other way to run the system other than to hold people responsible for knowing the law. After all, anybody can claim ignorance.

Anyway, I'm sure you are familiar with the principle that driving on public roads is a privilege, making you responsible for knowing traffic rules, posted and unposted. There is no sign anywhere explaining that red means 'stop'.

But red = stop is on traffic exams, and license exams, and is a well known law. This is seriously next level obscure. The reason I keep harking back to "there are no signs" is because the city always says "well, there's a sign right there - so you can't [blank] here, so you're getting a ticket." That's their way of explaining ANY parking violation. Then something like this happens, and a hard working citizen has to miss work and pay a pretty decent fine for something he was never even warned about, made aware of, or learned anywhere. It's bullshit, that's all.
post #12 of 35
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by binge View Post
It sucks dude. I highly doubt you'll get anywhere trying to fight it, but if you so desire, knock yourself out. Just about everyone I know has learned about these rules, either through first-hand experience or by hearing of similar stories from friends/colleagues. BTW, I once parked my car in the same spot in SF for ~6 months. I wasn't towed, but the radio was stolen.
Ugh, I dunno what it is lately, but any time something good happens something bad is right there to balance it out. We got the keys to the house today (yay) and come back to the apartment and the car is towed. It's like, really? A few weeks ago something else was good (can't remember) and I was pulled over for a broken taillight (didn't know about it, no big deal, just a fix-it ticket) and when the officer left the car wouldn't start. Lately any time something good happens I'm constantly on the look out for something bad... It's like a hex or something.
post #13 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by mafoofan View Post
Well, your mistake doesn't render you a dangerous criminal or even a bad citizen, but there's no other way to run the system other than to hold people responsible for knowing the law. After all, anybody can claim ignorance.

Anyway, I'm sure you are familiar with the principle that driving on public roads is a privilege, making you responsible for knowing traffic rules, posted and unposted. There is no sign anywhere explaining that red means 'stop'.

I'm sure you are aware that there are laws stating that certain "traffic rules" have to be posted within certain limits. As far as parking requirements goes, I do not know. But for certain traffic rules such as speed limits, they have to be posted within certain limits, i.e. every mile. Also, speed limits cannot be arbitrarily set, and must be based on the 85th percentile speed for the roadway and must be updated every few years through speed surveys. Therefore, you cannot legally receive a speeding ticket if there is no sign posted within certain limits and can fight it if it is a speed trap (not at the 85th percentile posting or hasn't had a survey done within appropriate parameters).

For parking requirements, appropriate posting is always recommended and not doing so presents these problems as Moo has forecast. For someone that lives in NYC, the laws may be pretty easily known and universal. In my experience, different cities have different laws, for parking, stopping, and loading zones. Not only that, but some cities will have different laws for different streets. On top of that, they will have different laws for the same street on different roadway segments. Many people will park in different cities each day. I parked my car in 4 different cities today and drove through at least 10 cities. The common person is not going to know all the laws for every street in every city they may pass through. This is why signage is important and often times mandated.
post #14 of 35
If your car has AWD then the odds are pretty good that they fucked it up (AWD, that is.)
If so, start shopping for a lawyer
post #15 of 35
For instance the SF Municipal Code states that vehcles cannot park in excess of 7 days on public roads. Also, below is from the Transportation Code... Sec. 8.1. Circumstances Permitting Removal. SEC. 8.1. CIRCUMSTANCES PERMITTING REMOVAL. (a) When any legally required signage is posted giving notice, any Police Officer or Parking Control Officer is authorized, in accordance with all applicable requirements of this Code and the Vehicle Code, to remove or cause to have removed any vehicle that is: (1) Parked in violation of Vehicle Code Section 22500, 22651 or 22652; (70, 70b) or (2) Parked, disabled or abandoned in a manner as to obstruct the normal movement of pedestrian or vehicular traffic, or in a condition to create a hazard to other traffic in violation of Vehicle Code Sections 22651(b) or 22654(c); (70, 70(b), 71b, 159) or (3) Not a motorcycle and is Parked in an area designated as motorcycle parking only; (27, 219) or (4) Interfering with the use of any Street for purposes other than the normal flow of traffic in violation of signs posted at least 24 hours before such use is scheduled to begin, in accordance with Vehicle Code § 22654(d) or 22651(m); (193, 193.4) or (5) Parked at a Stand when such vehicle is not within the class of vehicles authorized to use such Stand, or is Parked at a Stand outside of the hours that such vehicle is authorized to use a Stand; (33.5A) or (6) Parked in such a manner that it blocks any entrance to any residence or blocks access to electric vehicle charging bays; (32.21, 32.21A, 32.22) or (7) Parked in violation of any restriction or prohibition in Division II for which Division II authorizes removal of vehicles in accordance with Vehicle Code Section 22651(n); (32.4.1, 32.4.3, 27) or (8) Parked in violation of a Parking restriction or prohibition posted at a curb painted white, yellow, green or red; (33.3, 38.B, 38.C) or (9) Parked on a Street for 168 or more consecutive hours (7 days), except that no vehicle may be removed pursuant to this Section except in compliance with all procedural requirements of this Code. (37(a), 159, 159.10) or (10) Parked in any Municipal Parking Facility in any manner which violates this Code, or which is left in a Municipal Parking Facility for more than 24 hours after the expiration of the period for which the parking fee was paid for that vehicle; (32.14, 32.19) or (11) A bicycle left unattended in any manner that obstructs a sidewalk, street, alley, transit access or other public place (219.2) or (12) Parked on any Street in violation of Section 7.2.99, provided that (a) such vehicle has been issued a notice of parking violation for violation of Section 7.2.99 within the past 30 days, (b) such previous notice of parking violation was accompanied by a warning that an additional violation may result in the impoundment of the vehicle, and (c) a subsequent notice of parking violation was issued at least 24 hours prior to impoundment of the vehicle. (b) Any peace officer or other employee authorized to enforce Port Regulations who finds any vehicle or animal unattended and standing or Parked in violation of Port Regulations may remove the vehicle or cause it to be removed to the nearest garage or such animal to the nearest place of safety. (220) (c) Any peace officer who arrests the operator of a vehicle that is licensed as a charter-party carrier of passengers by the CPUC for operating as a taxicab may impound the vehicle in accordance with California Public Utilities Code § 5411.5.
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