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The StyleForum Working Hierarchical Suit Quality List (SFWHSQL!) - Page 71

post #1051 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by conradwu View Post
 

They make suits?  

They have some on sale on BlueFly and 100% Wool :) 

post #1052 of 1318
They seem to be on sale everywhere. I have no experience with them but from what I've heard they're pretty good value at half price but their supposed RRP is a joke
post #1053 of 1318
Tommy Hilfiger=fused. They used to have nice fabrics, especially their winter collections but lately they seem to have lost it, almost completely. The cut has also changed, for the worse. I can't recommend them even at 50% off.
post #1054 of 1318
The few Tommy Hilfiger suits I have seen fell squarely within the "do not buy" zone.
post #1055 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by McKriss View Post

Tommy Hilfiger=fused. They used to have nice fabrics, especially their winter collections but lately they seem to have lost it, almost completely. The cut has also changed, for the worse. I can't recommend them even at 50% off.

Maybe we ought to put this knowledge in the list. Let people know the info. 

post #1056 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by McKriss View Post

Tommy Hilfiger=fused. They used to have nice fabrics, especially their winter collections but lately they seem to have lost it, almost completely. The cut has also changed, for the worse. I can't recommend them even at 50% off.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XFactor View Post
 

Maybe we ought to put this knowledge in the list. Let people know the info. 


To be fair, most everyone here knows TH is pretty low quality. These are more for the brands you can't find in any basic department store. Even at the $100 price tag TH is always found at I'd refuse to recommend it, uninspired designs and poor construction.

post #1057 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by McKriss View Post

Tommy Hilfiger=fused. They used to have nice fabrics, especially their winter collections but lately they seem to have lost it, almost completely. The cut has also changed, for the worse. I can't recommend them even at 50% off.

 

Would you say a fused made in Italy with Italian fabric Corneliani is worse than a Chinese 100% wool full canvassed $500 suit?

 

In this thread they don't care about cut, only quality and that being only whether full canvassed or not. They don't know how to evaluate stitching or fabric or techniques as they are subjective and can't be used as a quantitative measure of quality or performance indication in the real world. Or perhaps they are afraid that the pockets and buttonholds of a $2500 Isaia jacket falls apart after 5 uses, whereby an el cheapo Armani Collezioni last years. This goes back to the controversial point whereby in the mindset of some people here a full canvas suit is automatically superior to a half canvassed or fused. They should just make another list with an "Avoid" group consisting of all fused brands regardless anything else. While I wear suits everyday, I mostly buy OTR suits as a hobby so I evaluate them based on function with much less bias.

 

Having said that, he can do much better with a European made $350 Paul Smith London or if possible Byard than a really crappy Hilfiger.

post #1058 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riva View Post
 

 

Would you say a fused made in Italy with Italian fabric Corneliani is worse than a Chinese 100% wool full canvassed $500 suit?

 

In this thread they don't care about cut, only quality and that being only whether full canvassed or not. They don't know how to evaluate stitching or fabric or techniques as they are subjective and can't be used as a quantitative measure of quality or performance indication in the real world. Or perhaps they are afraid that the pockets and buttonholds of a $2500 Isaia jacket falls apart after 5 uses, whereby an el cheapo Armani Collezioni last years. This goes back to the controversial point whereby in the mindset of some people here a full canvas suit is automatically superior to a half canvassed or fused. They should just make another list with an "Avoid" group consisting of all fused brands regardless anything else. While I wear suits everyday, I mostly buy OTR suits as a hobby so I evaluate them based on function with much less bias.

 

Having said that, he can do much better with a European made $350 Paul Smith London or if possible Byard than a really crappy Hilfiger.


 

You seem bitter that people are skeptical about your "bespoke" garments or wearing a Zara suit with an Isaia coral pin but please don't go flooding the thread with misinformation. I can assure you that individuals like Dirnelli and jrd617 have much more experience than you or I in understanding stitching, fabric and production techniques.

 

We're not afraid that an Isaia suit will fall apart after 5 wears precisely because many of us own them, have first hand experience and can testify to their value. The point of this thread is to rely on community first-hand knowledge to establish a rough template of what suits fall where, not casting stones at garments we've never experienced. I can speak to a number of different manufacturers because I personally own them. I own fused suits, half canvased suits, and a good deal of canvased garments.

 

I'm not biased against fusing, it's great cost saving technique for getting a sculpted shape for low cost but it's just that: a cost saving measure that loses the comfort, flexibility and life of canvassing to make the process faster and cheaper. Having any old full canvas isn't inherently better, but a well made canvased garment is.

post #1059 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riva View Post

Would you say a fused made in Italy with Italian fabric Corneliani is worse than a Chinese 100% wool full canvassed $500 suit?

In this thread they don't care about cut, only quality and that being only whether full canvassed or not. They don't know how to evaluate stitching or fabric or techniques as they are subjective and can't be used as a quantitative measure of quality or performance indication in the real world. Or perhaps they are afraid that the pockets and buttonholds of a $2500 Isaia jacket falls apart after 5 uses, whereby an el cheapo Armani Collezioni last years. This goes back to the controversial point whereby in the mindset of some people here a full canvas suit is automatically superior to a half canvassed or fused. They should just make another list with an "Avoid" group consisting of all fused brands regardless anything else. While I wear suits everyday, I mostly buy OTR suits as a hobby so I evaluate them based on function with much less bias.

Having said that, he can do much better with a European made $350 Paul Smith London or if possible Byard than a really crappy Hilfiger.

Although you confuse things a bit with your opening question, your prespective is correct, up to a point. And I have never heard of fused mainline Corneliani. That's why the diffusion lines are rated separately.
post #1060 of 1318
Fascinating debate which will certainly confuse matters viciously for noob readers who are probably just looking for shortcuts towards making the right purchase on a limited budget. I say limited budget, because if you are uncertain which of Brioni, Attolini or Kiton is the right choice for your next purchase, then you have outgrown this thread and are probably going to be asking yourself some seriously geeky tailoring questions, the truth of which shall be discussed to no end on some other SF threads -- I love the one about NSM vs. Rubinacci shoulder slope, a classic!

So in short, I am very comfortable with the reader's digest version of classification put forth on this thread, which to me goes like this:

1. Cut
2. Fit
3. Fabric
4. Construction
i. Canvassed
ii. Half-canvassed
iii. Fused

So as you can see, the debate on fusing is a minor one in the grand scheme of your decision-making tree, merely a subsection of part 4.

As I rotate to my FW wardrobe, I have had ample opportunity to try on many of my jackets for a few seconds at a time, in quick succession, which is a great way to remind oneself how true the preceding guidelines are: yes, the canvassed garments always feel more awesome on your body, but a canvassed garment that needs to be taken in looks like crap, no matter how expensive, compared to a fused cheapie that fits perfectly.

I have total respect for all of my cheap jackets, and love them all the more because they didn't set me back, whereas no matter how awesome my top suits are, I always look at them with some bitterness in knowing that they cost alot more than what they are probably intrinsically worth.
post #1061 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by MZhammer View Post
 

To be fair, most everyone here knows TH is pretty low quality. These are more for the brands you can't find in any basic department store. Even at the $100 price tag TH is always found at I'd refuse to recommend it, uninspired designs and poor construction.

Your assumption is wrong as most people google around and then come to SF, join and ask questions. Most newbies come to the list to ASK, and if we know we would not ask. Maybe we should add another category. 

UN-Recommend it in the LIST in a category that you may label - Avoid, Crap, Do not buy. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riva View Post Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Would you say a fused made in Italy with Italian fabric Corneliani is worse than a Chinese 100% wool full canvassed $500 suit?

 

In this thread they don't care about cut, only quality and that being only whether full canvassed or not. They don't know how to evaluate stitching or fabric or techniques as they are subjective and can't be used as a quantitative measure of quality or performance indication in the real world. Or perhaps they are afraid that the pockets and buttonholds of a $2500 Isaia jacket falls apart after 5 uses, whereby an el cheapo Armani Collezioni last years. This goes back to the controversial point whereby in the mindset of some people here a full canvas suit is automatically superior to a half canvassed or fused. They should just make another list with an "Avoid" group consisting of all fused brands regardless anything else. While I wear suits everyday, I mostly buy OTR suits as a hobby so I evaluate them based on function with much less bias.

 

 

Having said that, he can do much better with a European made $350 Paul Smith London or if possible Byard than a really crappy Hilfiger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Fascinating debate which will certainly confuse matters viciously for noob readers who are probably just looking for shortcuts towards making the right purchase on a limited budget. I say limited budget, because if you are uncertain which of Brioni, Attolini or Kiton is the right choice for your next purchase, then you have outgrown this thread and are probably going to be asking yourself some seriously geeky tailoring questions, Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
the truth of which shall be discussed to no end on some other SF threads -- I love the one about NSM vs. Rubinacci shoulder slope, a classic!

So in short, I am very comfortable with the reader's digest version of classification put forth on this thread, which to me goes like this:

1. Cut
2. Fit
3. Fabric
4. Construction
i. Canvassed
ii. Half-canvassed
iii. Fused

So as you can see, the debate on fusing is a minor one in the grand scheme of your decision-making tree, merely a subsection of part 4.

As I rotate to my FW wardrobe, I have had ample opportunity to try on many of my jackets for a few seconds at a time, in quick succession, which is a great way to remind oneself how true the preceding guidelines are: yes, the canvassed garments always feel more awesome on your body, but a canvassed garment that needs to be taken in looks like crap, no matter how expensive, compared to a fused cheapie that fits perfectly.

I have total respect for all of my cheap jackets, and love them all the more because they didn't set me back, whereas no matter how awesome my top suits are, I always look at them with some bitterness in knowing that they cost alot more than what they are probably intrinsically worth.
post #1062 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirnelli View Post

Fascinating debate which will certainly confuse matters viciously for noob readers who are probably just looking for shortcuts towards making the right purchase on a limited budget. I say limited budget, because if you are uncertain which of Brioni, Attolini or Kiton is the right choice for your next purchase, then you have outgrown this thread and are probably going to be asking yourself some seriously geeky tailoring questions, the truth of which shall be discussed to no end on some other SF threads -- I love the one about NSM vs. Rubinacci shoulder slope, a classic!

So in short, I am very comfortable with the reader's digest version of classification put forth on this thread, which to me goes like this:

1. Cut
2. Fit
3. Fabric
4. Construction
i. Canvassed
ii. Half-canvassed
iii. Fused

So as you can see, the debate on fusing is a minor one in the grand scheme of your decision-making tree, merely a subsection of part 4.

As I rotate to my FW wardrobe, I have had ample opportunity to try on many of my jackets for a few seconds at a time, in quick succession, which is a great way to remind oneself how true the preceding guidelines are: yes, the canvassed garments always feel more awesome on your body, but a canvassed garment that needs to be taken in looks like crap, no matter how expensive, compared to a fused cheapie that fits perfectly.

I have total respect for all of my cheap jackets, and love them all the more because they didn't set me back, whereas no matter how awesome my top suits are, I always look at them with some bitterness in knowing that they cost alot more than what they are probably intrinsically worth.

 

i think all you said was very true.  the way i see it, while suit construction is only a part of suit-making, it is a "marker" for good suits.  i.e. a company that produces tons of fused suits are highly unlikely to spend much time on other aspects. 

 

an analogy would be - the number of cylinders is an important aspect of car-making.  there are plenty of acceptable, cost-effective, stylish cars with 4 cylinders but you are just not going to find a top-notch performer with 4 cylinders.  car makers that don't bother to put a V6 into a car probably won't bother to make the mirrors/windows/tires nice.  

 

there are certainly a market for fused suits (when the price is right), and there is huge diminished return for $5000 suits.  readers just have to be aware. everything is in the shade of grey. 

post #1063 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by XFactor View Post
 

Your assumption is wrong as most people google around and then come to SF, join and ask questions. Most newbies come to the list to ASK, and if we know we would not ask. Maybe we should add another category. 

UN-Recommend it in the LIST in a category that you may label - Avoid, Crap, Do not buy. 

 


Perhaps, however if we do that there will be literally hundreds on the avoid list which isn't right. If you're budget truly is max $200 then you don't have many choices and it would be foolish to avoid buying a suit simply because they aren't worth the money in our eyes. As Riva clearly illustrates not everyone agrees on what is or isn't worth the money. Some of us wouldn't wear a Zara suit, some of us love them for the value.

 

We're trying to focus on recommendations, pointing you in a specific direction, rather than giving guidance on every possible brand. Maybe it might be best to put a disclaimer that if the brand isn't found on the list then we can't recommend it's quality? I don't know, but I think we've gathered a fairly robust set of "recommended" OTR suits that are readily available across the globe. I'd suggest we avoid adding more "not recommends" to the list and keep it mainly limited to vary degrees of recommending. As we discuss brands like TH, if they don't meet the requirements we can leave them off and keep the list manageable.

 

Maybe something like below?

 

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Disclaimer: This list is intended to recommend suits that have been evaluated first hand by the SF community based on construction quality. Brands not on the list have either not been evaluated or do not meet the minimum requirements to be recommended at any budget level. The list does not include criteria for fit, as it is subjective and differs for each body type, nor does it offer criteria for fabric or styling. If you're brand new to buying a suit, consider the fit of a garment before any other factors.
 

Excellent [*****]
- Oxxford (Highest Quality)
- Brioni
- Cesare Attolini Napoli

- Caraceni
- Kiton
- Luciano Barbera Sartoriale
- Luigi Borrelli
- Sartoria Castangia
- St Andrew / Santandrea
- La Vera Sartoria Napoletana
- Zegna Couture/Tom Ford

Very Good[****] (IE: Few suits match the quality of the ones in this category.)

- Battistoni
- D'Avenza
- Isaia
- Sartoria Partenopea
- Oxxford (1220)
- Belvest mainline
- Borrelli Luxury Vintage
- Canali Milano
- Corneliani Linea Sartoria
- Pal Zileri Sartoriale (I think there is another line higher than Sartoriale: The custom made one--IIRC "Abito Privato"--has excellent quality)
- Ravazzolo
- Sartoria Attolini Napoli
- Raffaelle Caruso: Sartoria Parma
- RLPL
- Sartorio
- Stile Latino

Good[***] (IE: Quality is superior to most suits.)

- Brooks Brothers Black Fleece
- Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece
- Brunello Cucinelli (very nice fabrics)
- Canali mainline
- Canali Exclusive (higher end fabrics)
- Cantarelli mainline
- Corneliani mainline
- Dunhill
- Ermenegildo Zegna
- Faconnable Tailleur

- Martin Greenfield for Gilt, BoO, FSC, & O&S (fully canvassed)
- Hickey Freeman Mainline
- Kei by Canali (full canvas, but very soft)
- Pal Zileri mainline
- Paul Smith mainline (fully canvassed)
- Paul Stuart
- Raffaelle Caruso mainline
- RLBL
- Samuelsohn
- J. Press Pressidential (full canvas)

- Robert Talbott (Made in USA by Martin Greenfield)

Satisfactory [**] (IE: The "average" brands. Quality is acceptable.)

- Belvest Silver Label (half canvassed line)
- Brooks Brothers 1818 (half canvassed)
- Burberry Prorsum
- Cantarelli Tailor
- Charles Tyrwhitt
- CC Corneliani (half canvassed)
- Coppley (half canvassed)
- Etro (if you can find the half canvas ones; some fused)
- Boglioli (if you can find the half canvas ones; some fused)
- Giorgio Armani (Black Label)[/U] (alot of their pieces are fused)
- Gucci
- H. Freemann
- Hackett (half canvassed)
- Hugo Boss Selection[/U] half canvassed and some premium fabrics
- Hickey Freeman LTD (half canvassed)
- J. Press Presstige (half canvassed)
- Lardini (half canvassed)
- L.B.M. 1911
- Marks and Spencer (any of their "Pure Wool" collection)
- Paul Smith London (half canvassed)
- Piombo
- Polo Ralph Lauren (half canvassed, excellent fabric)
- Suit Supply (half canvassed)
- Valentino (half canvassed)
- Prada (half canvassed)

- Peter Millar

Mediocre[*] (Suits that are mediocre.)

 

- J Crew Ludlow (fused)
- Armani Exchange
- Calvin Klein Collection (now fused)
- Dolce & Gabbana
- J. Press mainline (fused; decent fabrics)
- Hickey (now fused and made in China)
- Hugo Boss (fused)
- Joseph Abboud
- Pal Zileri Lab
- Versace Collection
- Z Zegna
- Armani Collezioni (fused)
- Corneliani Trend (fused)


Edited by MZhammer - 10/29/13 at 8:35am
post #1064 of 1318
I have a Sid Mashburn suit. It's canvassed with a very soft shoulder a higher arm hole. I have had it for more than a year and it seems well made to me; no problems thus far. It is the basic navy at $995 and I think you would be hard pressed to find anything better at this price. The only negative that I have noticed is that the waist band on the trousers seems a bit unsubstantial but this could be a result of the very, very light fabric that is used on the suit.
post #1065 of 1318
Quote:
Originally Posted by vida View Post

I have a Sid Mashburn suit. It's canvassed with a very soft shoulder a higher arm hole. I have had it for more than a year and it seems well made to me; no problems thus far. It is the basic navy at $995 and I think you would be hard pressed to find anything better at this price. The only negative that I have noticed is that the waist band on the trousers seems a bit unsubstantial but this could be a result of the very, very light fabric that is used on the suit.


I think Sid Mashburn is made by Caruso, can anyone confirm?

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