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post #31 of 123
I did a very intense year of Muay Thai (private lessons in addition to two group lessons/day, most days of the week). My interest was in the discipline and training, as I have no desire to hurt anyone. Good thing too, because I'm completely worthless in a fight. I have the reaction time of a foot-stool. It doesn't help that I wear contact lenses, and the slightest brush across my lashes will cause my contacts to immediately drop to the ground.
post #32 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
Gotta agree with the Krav Maga, in theory. I have no personal experience. As for the problem with your dojo now, I sympathize. My stepson has been in the school for all of about 12 lessons, and he is ready to test? WTF? Most of the upper level belts do not impress me either, unless they train particularly lazily. They say that the usual progression to black belt is 5-6 years, which, in my mind, is ridiculous. Maybe that can happen if you are natural super tough, have former experience, and train like a mofo (at least 5 times a week). It's a Taekwando school, and I've seen black belts with trouble drop spinning back kicks. I haven't trained in 3 years and can still pull one off decently.

Zach,

When I learned long fist, I spent the first month in low horse stance, and whenever we (the beginners) weakened or shifted weight, the instructor (Sifu) would sweep our legs from under us and insult us. His favorite was "You weak like lamb. Fight like grandma" and then make mewling noises and mock out punching style. The second month or so, we learned to walk properly, and then basic punches and kicks. The guy was a real fan of punches in bunches. One exercise was to punch, in horse or front stance, as fast and strong as possible. Another was to punch a piece of solid oak, and then later, a steel plate. Knife handing and side and roundhouse kicking two-by-fours was pretty common too. The point was to toughen up the hands and legs for real fights. Half contact sparring was the norm. So yeah, definitely the dojo you are at.

Of course, the instructor was an old school guy from the Hong Kong tradition, and at about 65 years old then, could still do one finger pushups. His favorite form of humiliation was to tell us to make our most stabil stance, and then push us around the room (concrete, btw, and all the sparring was matless) with his index finger.

There were no ranks. Everyone knew who could kick whose' ass.

in my dojo, if you pay your bill every month, in 2 years you will have a black sash, whether you have a pulse or not. I think this is just getting to be more and more common in the states. when I was a kid, I used to come home from practice with bloody hands, and sometimes with a black eye, or limping. and we would work on our stances and the basics very hard, as well as a lot of one on one and sparing. now I see all these guys who have no power at all, and do a lot of fancy kicks.
post #33 of 123
ok last one *chuckle* :

"You know, there's like a butt-load of gangs at this school. This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo staff."
post #34 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault78law
I did a very intense year of Muay Thai (private lessons in addition to two group lessons/day, most days of the week). My interest was in the discipline and training, as I have no desire to hurt anyone. Good thing too, because I'm completely worthless in a fight. I have the reaction time of a foot-stool. It doesn't help that I wear contact lenses, and the slightest brush across my lashes will cause my contacts to immediately drop to the ground.


how did you get into such intense training? were you in thailand at the time?
post #35 of 123
Naw, it's just my nature to do things intensely when I'm "into" it, much like my participation in this forum at times, heh. At the time, I was out of school and not working, so I had all the time in the world. There were two group classes each night, and I made it a habit to do both, back to back. I also bought a large package of private lessons, where we'd work on various techniques. He also took that opportunity to beat the crap out of me, both in the ring and outside, e.g. smacking me with pads while doing situps, rubbing my various bruises with balm, feeding me concentrated redbull, etc. Jeez, I remember the bruises...shin and inner and outer thigh, ouchie. It was really fun, I wish I could find similar instruction here in LA. The one place I saw in LA seemed too testosteronie for my tastes, too Americanized, as opposed to Thai.
Like I said though, I really suck, I'm just too slow...
post #36 of 123
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault78law
Naw, it's just my nature to do things intensely when I'm "into" it, much like my participation in this forum at times, heh. At the time, I was out of school and not working, so I had all the time in the world. There were two group classes each night, and I made it a habit to do both, back to back. I also bought a large package of private lessons, where we'd work on various techniques. He also took that opportunity to beat the crap out of me, both in the ring and outside, e.g. smacking me with pads while doing situps, rubbing my various bruises with balm, feeding me concentrated redbull, etc. Jeez, I remember the bruises...shin and inner and outer thigh, ouchie. It was really fun, I wish I could find similar instruction here in LA. The one place I saw in LA seemed too testosteronie for my tastes, too Americanized, as opposed to Thai.
Like I said though, I really suck, I'm just too slow...

Yea I've got a private Muay Thai teacher right now but he's pretty nice to me. He says in a couple weeks he's going to get really brutal though. I need to work on re-conditioning my legs to do Thai-style kicks, especially front kicks.
post #37 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renault78law
Naw, it's just my nature to do things intensely when I'm "into" it, much like my participation in this forum at times, heh. At the time, I was out of school and not working, so I had all the time in the world. There were two group classes each night, and I made it a habit to do both, back to back. I also bought a large package of private lessons, where we'd work on various techniques. He also took that opportunity to beat the crap out of me, both in the ring and outside, e.g. smacking me with pads while doing situps, rubbing my various bruises with balm, feeding me concentrated redbull, etc. Jeez, I remember the bruises...shin and inner and outer thigh, ouchie. It was really fun, I wish I could find similar instruction here in LA. The one place I saw in LA seemed too testosteronie for my tastes, too Americanized, as opposed to Thai.
Like I said though, I really suck, I'm just too slow...

Are you living in Pasadena? If so, on the north side of Colorado, just a couple of blocks east of Lake, there is a Machado brothers Brazilian Jiujitsu place (not where I trained, btw) that is pretty good. There are actually a number of pretty goo martial arts schools in the area, but a lot of them (I trained in a few) are really testoserone filled (You can feel the teacher just wanting to shout "Mercy is for the weak! In this dojo, we do not train to be merciful!" and quite a few are filled with gangbanger types. Surprisingly, in full contact sparring, a lot of the tatted up, roided out types crumble pretty quickly (um, must be the smal balls). On the other hand, some pretty innocuous looking dudes can really hand it to you. There was one guy, just a little heavier than I was (I was about 165 at the time - over 10 pounds heavier than now) and really wiry, but a really unassuming guy, who had a punch like a sledgehammer. We were sparring, and he caught me right on the jaw. I had dropped my guard to lure him in, and he got in, but not the way I'd intended and I went down hard. Ouch. Only time I've been knocked out (took me at least 20 seconds to get to my feet) outside a boxing ring.
post #38 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
in my dojo, if you pay your bill every month, in 2 years you will have a black sash, whether you have a pulse or not. I think this is just getting to be more and more common in the states. when I was a kid, I used to come home from practice with bloody hands, and sometimes with a black eye, or limping. and we would work on our stances and the basics very hard, as well as a lot of one on one and sparing. now I see all these guys who have no power at all, and do a lot of fancy kicks.

One of my best friends (he was one of my groomsmen) gave me a knife kick to the side of the knee during hard contact sparring class once (we were both in high school at the time). I was limping for about a month. He does aikido, and is a lot less aggressive and his fast twitch muscles are not nearly as developed as mine, and everytime we meet up during the holidays, we do a little mock sparring (no or very light contact) which I usually "win." He still mentions that kick from time to time though.
post #39 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by LA Guy
One of my best friends (he was one of my groomsmen) gave me a knife kick to the side of the knee during hard contact sparring class once (we were both in high school at the time). I was limping for about a month. He does aikido, and is a lot less aggressive and his fast twitch muscles are not nearly as developed as mine, and everytime we meet up during the holidays, we do a little mock sparring (no or very light contact) which I usually "win." He still mentions that kick from time to time though.


I have a friend who is a black belt in akido, he actually studied summers for 3 or 4 years in japan, and he has been studying aikido for about 10 years. he is a lot smaller than me, maybe 70 pounds. a while back he kept pushing me to "Wrestle" him, saying how he had such skills he would be able to toss me. anyway - when he caught his breath, after I had plastered him to a wall, it was like his life had changed. he had spent 10 years doing a highly ritualized system that pretty much assumed everyone would be barefoot and in pajamas, and he really believed in his super powers.

a kick in the knee is a bitch, though. I bet if you guys had been 10 years older, the combination of more muscle strenght and less bone flexibity would have put you on crutches.
post #40 of 123
Thread Starter 
globe, that sounds incredibly violent. There should be a balance - you get to the point where you know what hurts, but so you can also keep your cool and actually do the technique correctly instead of going crazy and bashing each other as hard as you can. Good training is so important. I've come home with bloody hands plenty of times but that was only because I forgot to bring handwraps, and I've torn up my elbow a few times on failed board breaks. I would be afraid of a dojo that was full contact all the time. You wouldn't learn anything if you just got the shit beat out of you all the time!
post #41 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian SD
globe, that sounds incredibly violent. There should be a balance - you get to the point where you know what hurts, but so you can also keep your cool and actually do the technique correctly instead of going crazy and bashing each other as hard as you can. Good training is so important.

I've come home with bloody hands plenty of times but that was only because I forgot to bring handwraps, and I've torn up my elbow a few times on failed board breaks. I would be afraid of a dojo that was full contact all the time. You wouldn't learn anything if you just got the shit beat out of you all the time!


hard to argue - I guess you need the right balance. I certainly wouldn't be up for that at this stage in my life.

actually, though, I don't know if it was so violent, or jsut tough. we hit a lot of stuff, and worked very hard, and were used to our teacher giving us a little kick every now and again.

by the way - any of you guys ever go to fightingarts.com?
post #42 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by globetrotter
I have a friend who is a black belt in akido, he actually studied summers for 3 or 4 years in japan, and he has been studying aikido for about 10 years. he is a lot smaller than me, maybe 70 pounds. a while back he kept pushing me to "Wrestle" him, saying how he had such skills he would be able to toss me. anyway - when he caught his breath, after I had plastered him to a wall, it was like his life had changed. he had spent 10 years doing a highly ritualized system that pretty much assumed everyone would be barefoot and in pajamas, and he really believed in his super powers.
yeah i watched a thing on aiki last night on the Discovery Channel. It seems remarkably effective when fighting people who have their hands exactly where you need them to thrown them and who arent willing to do anything other than what you need them to in order to be thrown.

Sitting here thinking "ok while he doing all that spinny stuff with your left hand, punch him in the head with your right"...but that didnt seem to fit into the routine.
post #43 of 123
tck13 - noone mentioned boxing. i think its as good a street style as any. nothing ive ever done gives you hands like it. i would argue that street fighting almost always starts with a punch. you get that part right, not much else will really matter. Its funny when I go back to any of the 'eastern' style gyms these days (and admittedly its been a while) and they try to get me to use some weird guard, i fall into a boxing guard and they cant hit me. I on the other hand have little trouble getting a right hook around some wing chun guys 'tan sao' and getting an overhand left over his 'bong sao' There is nothing worse than when you do that, and sifu comes running over to tell you that 'you cant do that, you must punch like this' and youre standing there thinking 'your student is over there with an icepack and thats how he punches' as to BJJ - great style. Really great style. Unless there are two guys. Now in reality, if there are two guys, you are in trouble no matter what you have learned. Assume foetal position, take your licks. But with boxing (or any striking style) you may have a chance. BJJ, by definition, puts you in a lot of trouble, cos while you are down there choking the hell out of one guy, the other one can do whatever the hell he wants to you. You have no spare limbs to defend yourself without letting go of the first guy. Thats the obvious issue that everyone points out. The second people seem to overlook. A street is not a mat. Do you really want to do a takedown (BJJ doesnt have great takedowns btw, see freestyle wrestling for that) on to a street. Broken glass on that bar floor? Rolling around in it not advisable. Now what....
post #44 of 123
Matt, I actually boxed a while (if you read my original thread,) and in any streetfights I've been in, my instincts have been pretty much boxing instincts, except that I go inside a lot more than in the boxing ring, because I'm not that big a guy, and close quarter strikes like backhands, forearms, and elbows give me a lot of extra weaponry and are pretty punishing to the throat, jaw and back of the head. I'm also not that afraid of takedowns.

In most of the more "street" styles I've studied, boxing stances or modified boxing stances (which are weaker, but allow for easier defense against kincks and low blows) are used in sparring, and the punches used in sparring are generally jabs, crosses, and hooks, with the occasional uppercut. One Kenpo strike that I really like, and that would be completely illegal in boxing, hits first with the fist (much like a cross), then the forearm, then the elbow. Now, landing that is fun.

As for having bloody hands, I understand Zach completely, Brian. That was just part of the training. The one thing about boxing is that it doesn't really teach you to fight barehanded. And if you are too used to wraps and 2 ounce gloves, punching a guy in the face for the first time ever without any hand protection is pretty liable to get you injured. I think that this is one of the reasons I've seen some otherwise pretty decent martial artists get their asses handed to them in a brawl. I still punch a concrete post (not full strength, of course) just to make sure that I know how it feels to punch something hard with my bare hands.

Aikido is not really that useful. It is pretty beautiful though. Most Aikido guys I know acknowledge this, although some guys are really true believers. One guy I sparred with couldn't believe he got so many jabs in the face and couldn't trap even one of them and that a spinning back fist was pretty difficult to trap as well.
post #45 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by m@T
tck13 - noone mentioned boxing. i think its as good a street style as any. nothing ive ever done gives you hands like it. i would argue that street fighting almost always starts with a punch. you get that part right, not much else will really matter.

Its funny when I go back to any of the 'eastern' style gyms these days (and admittedly its been a while) and they try to get me to use some weird guard, i fall into a boxing guard and they cant hit me.

I on the other hand have little trouble getting a right hook around some wing chun guys 'tan sao' and getting an overhand left over his 'bong sao'

There is nothing worse than when you do that, and sifu comes running over to tell you that 'you cant do that, you must punch like this' and youre standing there thinking 'your student is over there with an icepack and thats how he punches'

as to BJJ - great style. Really great style. Unless there are two guys. Now in reality, if there are two guys, you are in trouble no matter what you have learned. Assume foetal position, take your licks. But with boxing (or any striking style) you may have a chance. BJJ, by definition, puts you in a lot of trouble, cos while you are down there choking the hell out of one guy, the other one can do whatever the hell he wants to you. You have no spare limbs to defend yourself without letting go of the first guy.

Thats the obvious issue that everyone points out. The second people seem to overlook. A street is not a mat. Do you really want to do a takedown (BJJ doesnt have great takedowns btw, see freestyle wrestling for that) on to a street. Broken glass on that bar floor? Rolling around in it not advisable. Now what....

Matt- I would actually rate boxing as one of the great "traditional" martial arts. like I has said - if you want to learn to defend your self fast and with a relativly low investment, I would recomend krav. in terms of something that takes more of an investment - I would agree that boxing is hugely effective. a couple of things that I like about boxing - there is no real faking it. you are hitting something, you know how hard you are hitting, you get the feel for it, which some eastern martial arts schools can try to avoid. you really do need to be fit - it takes a lot of wind to do it well. and you build up real "spirit". I would say that having good boxing skills puts you in a very good position.

I am sorry that when I was younger it wasn't so acceptable for a nice jewish boy to box. I would like to send my son in a couple of years to learn fundementals.
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