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post #16 of 39
8/20/09 at 12:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjg22 View Post
Most people go to law school because they want to make decent cash in their life. People talk about how there are ways to make more money doing other things, and that, to a certain extent, is true. However, your options, outside of law, are limited. You could become an accountant (or some off-shoot of that) and try and work your way into being a CFO or CEO of a large company, but that path is just about as crappy as law. You could go into banking, but that path is probably more crappy than law (and, given that deals are likely to be structured differently going forward, not as lucrative as it once was). Your best option would be to start your own business, except that presupposes that you have the requisite entrepreneurial drive and ability (which my experience has shown that 99% of people do not have).

At the end of the day, people that go into law are subtly risk adverse individuals. I'm a corporate lawyer and I've come to terms with that. It isn't a bad option (far more stable than two of the above, likely more lucrative than the other) and don't let people try and throw out a lot of b.s. as to why it is.

what the fuck???
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post #17 of 39
8/20/09 at 2:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian_Flyte View Post
yes, let's just say it's experience talking. The legal market is imploding, more law schools get accredited every year, and law schools have just been PUMPING PUMPING PUMPING out grads for the last 5 years or so. The field was saturated before the economy tanked, and now it's even worse; law school is becoming the new college (i.e. worthless). The same thing is happening to the MBA. My advice is, if you can get into a really good law school (if by "t14" you mean top 14, that's really good), you should still consider it. But whatever you do, don't go to a mid-ranked or lower law school-- not because your education will be any worse (it will be exactly the same), but it will be an uphill battle getting a job based purely on the name-value of your law school.

Ask around with lots of recent grads and see how many actually have jobs as attorneys, let alone good jobs. PM me if you want more of my sour advice.

That's what I am afraid of. Im a smart guy, ambitious, etc, but am by no means HYS or even top 14 material. I am confident I could handle the curriculum and excel, but my undergraduate GPA, LSAT score, and soft factors have me doomed as a top 30-40ish prospect, not top 14. And from what Ive been reading on law school forums, blogs, articles, etc. the odds of getting a job, muchless one that will allow me to pay back student loans while saving anything for retirement and living a decent lifestyle are commensurate with winning the powerball lottery; sure, it could happen, but the odds are not in most people's favor.

But then again, my definition of a 'decent living', I feel, may not the same as the people giving the above advice. I dont want to live in Manhattan and wear bespoke suits and Patek Phillipe watches and drive vintage Ferraris while summering in the Hamptons. I just want a quasi-meaningful job that allows me to buy the reasonable shit I want, pay off my parents mortgage, not have to worry about money, and retire comfortably. I could make $100k a few years out of school and be happy as a clam. So while going to a school outside of the top 14 may equate to absolute failure to some, I think maybe it could work for me.
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post #18 of 39
8/20/09 at 3:00am
the auction's not doing too badly I see. how much are you expecting to get?
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post #19 of 39
8/20/09 at 3:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBSLM View Post
That's what I am afraid of. Im a smart guy, ambitious, etc, but am by no means HYS or even top 14 material. I am confident I could handle the curriculum and excel, but my undergraduate GPA, LSAT score, and soft factors have me doomed as a top 30-40ish prospect, not top 14. And from what Ive been reading on law school forums, blogs, articles, etc. the odds of getting a job, muchless one that will allow me to pay back student loans while saving anything for retirement and living a decent lifestyle are commensurate with winning the powerball lottery; sure, it could happen, but the odds are not in most people's favor.

But then again, my definition of a 'decent living', I feel, may not the same as the people giving the above advice. I dont want to live in Manhattan and wear bespoke suits and Patek Phillipe watches and drive vintage Ferraris while summering in the Hamptons. I just want a quasi-meaningful job that allows me to buy the reasonable shit I want, pay off my parents mortgage, not have to worry about money, and retire comfortably. I could make $100k a few years out of school and be happy as a clam. So while going to a school outside of the top 14 may equate to absolute failure to some, I think maybe it could work for me.

There's no harm in applying everywhere. Just really do your homework about a specific school before enrolling. Talk to recent grads-- I can't emphasize this enough. The law school and its orientation people will paint a rosy canvas (some would say "lie") that often misrepresent the salaries and jobs that most of its graduates actually get. Always take the advice of actual law school graduates over your own gut instinct. They know. You don't. If they say "go," that's a strong recommendation. If they say, "don't go," you are crazy to sink 3 years and $100,000 into a path even they don't recommend. It will depend on the school. It's not necessarily "top 14" or nothing. It depends on the region and its legal market.

Obviously this is big advice to take from an anonymous stranger on a clothing forum, but consider postponing the law school decision, especially if you are getting conflicting advice *from actual recent law school graduates*. I think in the next 2-3 years the effect of the law school explosion of the past few years will hit critical mass (if it hasn't already). See what happens to the legal job market and get some experience in the meantime in a related field.
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post #20 of 39
8/20/09 at 10:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBSLM View Post
That's what I am afraid of. Im a smart guy, ambitious, etc, but am by no means HYS or even top 14 material. I am confident I could handle the curriculum and excel, but my undergraduate GPA, LSAT score, and soft factors have me doomed as a top 30-40ish prospect, not top 14. And from what Ive been reading on law school forums, blogs, articles, etc. the odds of getting a job, muchless one that will allow me to pay back student loans while saving anything for retirement and living a decent lifestyle are commensurate with winning the powerball lottery; sure, it could happen, but the odds are not in most people's favor.
If you read law school application forums, you'll see that law school success is a common assumption by applicants. That, and "I have a great reference letter". It's graded on a curve. You don't think all the other 3.9/172 classmates will be trying to be top 10%? Most 1Ls aren't used to being labelled average, or worse, bottom 1/3.

Quote:
. . . I just want a quasi-meaningful job that allows me to buy the reasonable shit I want, pay off my parents mortgage, not have to worry about money, and retire comfortably. I could make $100k a few years out of school and be happy as a clam. So while going to a school outside of the top 14 may equate to absolute failure to some, I think maybe it could work for me.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you know that getting a "decent" living is like winning the lottery. On the other, you're expecting to make $100k a few years out of law school. Listen to your brain and don't get dragged into delusions of grandeur.

If you really want to go to law school, then do it. If you just want to make money, be a plumber or other tradesman. If you are somewhat business savvy you'll do much better owning your own service business.

If you're going to law school for the money, even in T14, be prepared to have no job or a $30k job when you graduate. Unless you have awesome grades or have connections (or HYS), it's tough to even get a 1L summer job now.
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post #21 of 39
8/20/09 at 2:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oman View Post
the auction's not doing too badly I see. how much are you expecting to get?

No clue. I wasnt expecting the price to have been bid so high so early in the auction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian_Flyte View Post
There's no harm in applying everywhere. Just really do your homework about a specific school before enrolling. Talk to recent grads-- I can't emphasize this enough. The law school and its orientation people will paint a rosy canvas (some would say "lie") that often misrepresent the salaries and jobs that most of its graduates actually get. Always take the advice of actual law school graduates over your own gut instinct. They know. You don't. If they say "go," that's a strong recommendation. If they say, "don't go," you are crazy to sink 3 years and $100,000 into a path even they don't recommend. It will depend on the school. It's not necessarily "top 14" or nothing. It depends on the region and its legal market.

Obviously this is big advice to take from an anonymous stranger on a clothing forum, but consider postponing the law school decision, especially if you are getting conflicting advice *from actual recent law school graduates*. I think in the next 2-3 years the effect of the law school explosion of the past few years will hit critical mass (if it hasn't already). See what happens to the legal job market and get some experience in the meantime in a related field.

You are an anonymous internet stranger on a clothing, but you give what seems to be reasonable, level-headed advice, which is appreciated. I am really in no rush to start school, so taking some time to evaluate and observe the field may be my best option. Im considering going back to school to take prereqs for med school since I did not take them during UG. Everything is really up in the air right now.
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post #22 of 39
8/20/09 at 2:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by intent View Post
If you read law school application forums, you'll see that law school success is a common assumption by applicants. That, and "I have a great reference letter". It's graded on a curve. You don't think all the other 3.9/172 classmates will be trying to be top 10%? Most 1Ls aren't used to being labelled average, or worse, bottom 1/3.

No I understand that most everyone in my class would be be striving for top 10% status as well, but when I set a goal Im pretty good at accomplishing it. Im kind of neurotic that way. But then again maybe Im just falling victim to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by intent
You seem to be contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you know that getting a "decent" living is like winning the lottery. On the other, you're expecting to make $100k a few years out of law school. Listen to your brain and don't get dragged into delusions of grandeur.

What I meant was that a lot of the law school info Ive come across seems to be coming from the perspective of elitist overachievers who would rather commit suicide than go to a school ranked lower than HYS. Going to a school like, say Duke, or *shudder* UNC, for example, would be out of the question for many of these people. So opinions like 'unless youre in the top 1% of your class at a top 14 school you will never land biglaw and will therefore be too poor to even live in a dumpster' are somewhat skewed and dont reflect reality. But maybe thats just wishful thinking on my part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by intent
If you really want to go to law school, then do it. If you just want to make money, be a plumber or other tradesman. If you are somewhat business savvy you'll do much better owning your own service business.

If you're going to law school for the money, even in T14, be prepared to have no job or a $30k job when you graduate. Unless you have awesome grades or have connections (or HYS), it's tough to even get a 1L summer job now.

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post #23 of 39
8/20/09 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by intent View Post
If you're going to law school for the money, even in T14, be prepared to have no job or a $30k job when you graduate. Unless you have awesome grades or have connections (or HYS), it's tough to even get a 1L summer job now.

Sorry, what I meant was, if you're prepared for that disastrous outcome, then you won't be disappointed. You might even feel great about getting a $80k job.
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post #24 of 39
8/20/09 at 9:14pm
I think BBSLM really hit the nail on the head (cool username btw) I worked at a local firm in high school doing estate planning, trust, and real estate law and found it tremendously illuminating about the day-to-day toil of lawyers. Granted, that was by no means a high-flying experience at a big firm, but it gave me some insight and had me re-evaluate my career path. I think its really quick to get caught up in unrealistic hopes and misguided motivations. I think most people find the pursuit of money alone pretty fruitless, given the time commitments and personal sacrifices. Get a paralegal or legal assistant position and see if its for you. This way you can make some money, buy some time, and not feel pressured by the sunk costs of tuition fees.
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post #25 of 39
8/20/09 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by intent View Post
If you read law school application forums, you'll see that law school success is a common assumption by applicants. That, and "I have a great reference letter". It's graded on a curve. You don't think all the other 3.9/172 classmates will be trying to be top 10%? Most 1Ls aren't used to being labelled average, or worse, bottom 1/3.



You seem to be contradicting yourself here. On the one hand, you know that getting a "decent" living is like winning the lottery. On the other, you're expecting to make $100k a few years out of law school. Listen to your brain and don't get dragged into delusions of grandeur.

If you really want to go to law school, then do it. If you just want to make money, be a plumber or other tradesman. If you are somewhat business savvy you'll do much better owning your own service business.

If you're going to law school for the money, even in T14, be prepared to have no job or a $30k job when you graduate. Unless you have awesome grades or have connections (or HYS), it's tough to even get a 1L summer job now.

I know its really popular to glorify the trades right now but plumbers and carpenters are hurting as well. I know several highly skilled, tooled up, and experienced contractors that have been out of work for the better part of the last year.
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post #26 of 39
8/21/09 at 12:47am
Honestly BBSLM, I was in the market to buy the books, but gave up my ambitions once the price shot up to ridiculous levels. I've seen them MUCH cheaper elsewhere. You're getting a pretty good deal here.

Hell, I'm pretty sure amazon sells these (the powerscore bibes, at least) for less than the current bid.
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post #27 of 39
8/21/09 at 9:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oman View Post
Honestly BBSLM, I was in the market to buy the books, but gave up my ambitions once the price shot up to ridiculous levels. I've seen them MUCH cheaper elsewhere. You're getting a pretty good deal here.

Hell, I'm pretty sure amazon sells these (the powerscore bibes, at least) for less than the current bid.

What does this tell you about the vast majority of students hoping to go to law school?
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post #28 of 39
8/21/09 at 6:23pm
I went into law for non-monetary reasons. I wanted a job that would be stimulating and garner at least a modicum of middle-class respectability (which, at least in Canada, lawyers still have). I eschewed the big firms (they also eschewed me!) in favour of a small practice. Four years in and I'm earning decent money, but the work is incredibly stressful (I'm in trial a lot) and has many drawbacks. Clients are a pain, the work can be all consuming and you become incredibly cynical and jaded (for good reason). On the other hand, it can be exhilarating when you win and the work can be both interesting and rewarding.

On the whole, I would echo the sentiments of other members and discourage anyone from going into law for money. You will be better served investing the time and money you will spend on law school and bar exams into starting a business.
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post #29 of 39
8/21/09 at 11:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirSuturesALot View Post
What does this tell you about the vast majority of students hoping to go to law school?

haha yeah ridiculous isn't it

i have a friend that just downloaded low-quality scans of all the powerscore bibles and practice lsats, and used those to score a 175

Quote:
Originally Posted by long_knives View Post
I went into law for non-monetary reasons. I wanted a job that would be stimulating and garner at least a modicum of middle-class respectability (which, at least in Canada, lawyers still have). I eschewed the big firms (they also eschewed me!) in favour of a small practice. Four years in and I'm earning decent money, but the work is incredibly stressful (I'm in trial a lot) and has many drawbacks. Clients are a pain, the work can be all consuming and you become incredibly cynical and jaded (for good reason). On the other hand, it can be exhilarating when you win and the work can be both interesting and rewarding.

On the whole, I would echo the sentiments of other members and discourage anyone from going into law for money. You will be better served investing the time and money you will spend on law school and bar exams into starting a business.

Where in Canada do you practice, sir? I've heard something about a mandatory two-year law apprenticeship or something, similar to what they do to Canadian accountants - is this real, and if so, do you like it?
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post #30 of 39
8/22/09 at 12:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyt7187 View Post
I think BBSLM really hit the nail on the head (cool username btw)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyt7187 View Post
Get a paralegal or legal assistant position and see if its for you. This way you can make some money, buy some time, and not feel pressured by the sunk costs of tuition fees.
This route is becoming more and more attractive each day. My LSAT score is good for 5 years, so it seems like a smart thing to do. Im curious as to what career path you decided on.
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