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Originally Posted by
Piobaire 
Some classes I really liked. I think, if I had been a trust fund baby, I'd have gone to school for life, just taking classes I enjoyed.
I would love to simply stay in school for a good deal of time, long enough to become half as well rounded as I would like to be. There is
so much out there that I would love to learn. But at some point I'd probably want to give back -- perhaps teach. I've been told I'm pretty passionate and interesting when in front of a board.
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Originally Posted by
CTGuy I did the part time law school thing my first year. It is not fun. Only a small segment of people are part timers and my impression was that law professors have little or no respect for working professionals (unfortunately), they are beginning their year of fucking with you not realizing this interferes with your professional life you pay the bills with. I agree with you on the BB thing. Near the end of my law school experience I had a few professors that became obsessed with it-- it's really not a good teaching tool. BB allows the professor to be lazy and the students need to be on call 24/7.
So I guess you understand. I was at an event this week with the full time students, and there certainly is a gulf in understanding. I have had to check BB all the time for 'things that will be up later.'
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Originally Posted by
philosophe I am not a law school prof, but I do give assignments for the first day of graduate classes. Why waste time?
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Originally Posted by
Milhouse Why waste time? That attitude really irritates me. How can you presume to know what time I do or do not have available? Professional school professors really need to realize that they are not dealing with "students" but rather with "customers". Huntsman, as someone that worked during his MBA, I COMPLETELY understand your perspective and agree with you 100%. I was usually out of the house between 6am and 10pm-midnight each day. Saturdays and Sundays, I tried to catch up with laundry, pay bills, deal with a relationship falling apart, searching for "MBA level" jobs, etc.
Well, it seems you understand my position (and, I might add, those are pretty much exactly my hours, too). But I'm not really down with the customer thing. I think learning should be much, much, more than a business transaction. That said, philosophe, I honestly disagree with your perspective, and I'm a pretty reasonable guy. I have nine days to get my books (which the readings are in) and I can either pay really high prices at the college bookstore (plus the 4hr round trip) or scour the web the day the list comes out and hope they come in on time. This does not give me time to do assignments. People plan around schedules. People who are working full time live and die by them -- we are not arriving on campus a few days early with nothing but our leisure to occupy us. We're working, being spouses and parents and caretakers, and trying to prepare for class. The published schedule says class starts on Monday. I have a few hours Sunday to get my stuff together and that's it -- I'm pushing everywhere to try and get things in before I start class, when I know I will be devoting myself to my studies. In my case, I was on a few days' vacation with my family, who I am really putting in a bit of a lurch -- and that is the time you are presuming to take from me. Time with my family that you really don't have a right to -- class has not started yet. If I'm a bad student I'll just blow it off or do a crappy job. If I'm a good student I try to 'fit it in'
somehow, somewhere. Which usually involves shorting myself in some critical way. I had to take a day off work for my assignments -- I've been working for only two years, I don't have too many. As I said earlier, if class doesn't start when its supposed to start then when does it start? With my acceptance?
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Originally Posted by
philosophe As a teacher, I'd prefer to spend the first class period on substantive material, not administrivia. If students read a short assignment, and I teach a genuine class, the students will find out what the course will really be like. It's much more effective than telling them what to expect in abstract terms. To boot, it's a way to avoid lecturing on the first day. Doing that sets the pattern for student passivity. I do not teach in a professional school, but I think that some of the same pedagogical reasons apply. I write down the administrative stuff on the syllabus and ask students to review it and ask questions if the have some. So many courses start with the "breaking the ice." Doing intellectual work together is the best way to get a course off the ground. I do not think students do themselves a favor by thinking of themselves as customers. Teaching and learning are collaborative activities, and the student does not always know what s/she needs to know about what's worthwhile.
I absolutely do not think of myself as a customer, and learning is incredible when it is collaborative! But that collaborative experience requires the trust that starts in respect, and if you're not respectful of
my time which is allocated in ways unknown to you, how are we going to start off in the right way? I'm certain you can engage your students in a learning experience without their having written anything or read anything ahead of time -- graduate work, right? So there is a level of understanding upon which you can rightfully presume.
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Originally Posted by
Thomas I understand your viewpoint Huntsman, and sympathize with it to a degree, but IMHO this is an introduction into the world of Being Sat Upon. It's not especially uncommon (and I think you already know this) for highers-up and adversaries to take advantages wherever they can and impinge upon your time wherever possible. I am not a lawyer, but I deal with them and am married to a 3L, who's already dealing with this. I hear stories all the time about changed meetings, last-second deal changes, incomplete documentation, and customers who barely know what they want as they negotiate. Mrs. Thomas had to take a call on Thanksgiving Day from a French attorney who insisted on negotiating a deal that had been on hold for months, but for some strange reason it HAD to be done on the fourth Thursday in November. Her boss had to cancel two family vacations at a different customer's behest. It never ends, and when there's money on the table it seems that few tactics are out-of-bounds. She's had to develop a thick skin about these games, and I'd like to think that your prof is at least giving you a taste of it up-front.
I see your point, and I have signed up for that in my career. But I think learning should be a more noble (if still taxing) experience.
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Originally Posted by
cheessus It's because you're a 1L and there is no "shopping" for classes. You're stuck with what you're assigned so the profs expect the reading to be done by everyone. Trust me, you don't want to be "that guy" who gets cold called the first day in class and didn't do the reading. It is pretty embarrassing. Worse, don't be that guy who gets it wrong only to have a gunner mow your ass down. Also, I'm pretty surprised that your school would let you work full time while you're a full-time student. As I understand it, most schools won't allow that, including mine. Best of luck.
I think the ABA accreditation prevents full time 1Ls from working. But I'm a part-time 1L, so I am allowed to work full-time. But the reality is that the first year part time curriculum also seems to be mandated just as the fulltimers, and it's only one class less!
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Originally Posted by
odoreater Don't sweat it. Eventually, you'll learn what classes you really have to be super prepared for and what classes you can slack on a little bit. I probably spent less time reading than the average law student in my school and I did very well (at a pretty good law school). Don't get too caught up in the hype and panic that grips most law students and you'll be fine.
Thanks -- I can see it out there, diffuse like a fog, already.
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Originally Posted by
dl20 You need to man up and take off the skirt huntsman. Try writing a 200pg dissertation proposal and throwing it in the trash when your chair decides it would be "interesting" to go in a different direction. I've been in grad school for 6 years; 2 MS, 4 pre doc and I'm finishing my final year internship working 60 hour weeks, commuting 3 hours daily to Lancaster from Philly for a govt stipend of 13k before taxes. dl
Whoa. That's really unfortunate, and perhaps even completely inappropriate. But should it be true that your particularly bad experience with one person validates a trend? I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by
lawyerdad Good luck, H. I'm confident you'll do fine.
LD. I greatly appreciate it. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by
IUtoSLU Good luck, Hunts. It is all about expectations. You can bet that from now on, every professor will expect that their class is the most important. Each professor will also expect you do have unlimited time to devote to each reading. You will also be expected to know the cases and materials perfectly before you get to class, to the point where you ask yourself, "If this much prep is required and I am expected to completely understand the cases before I come to class, then what is the prof teaching me?" The answer to that question is the same as the tree falling in the woods question.
<sighs> Gotcha.
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Originally Posted by
airportlobby To the OP - if you aren't going deep into debt for the degree, STFU, already. Jeeze. You're gonna be popular with your fellow students, who are mortgaging their futures for the degree, while you can back away at any time. Just be sure to mention the fact that you aren't paying for law school at least once every day on campus. This will guarantee popularity. Also that you are only there to learn "patent law."
Dude. I don't lord over either fact. This is not my campus. I want patent to be my substantive field -- I'm an engineer, being on the forefront is exciting to me. Plus I know engineers and how to talk to engineers and I get excited with them. Penn, to whom I made that comment, is an engineer, which is why I mentioned it. I still want to learn law, period. And no, I can't back away at any time, not perhaps for the same reasons as my colleagues, but it's there nonetheless.
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Originally Posted by
Benzito Ha! What you lay persons call "bitching," we lawyers call "a highly articulate, reflective, and persuasive argument." To the OP, I'd agree that the MAKING OF THE NOTES is much more beneficial than simply reading someone else's. If you're going to go with other's notes, just read the book or the commercial outline and get it right. Have a few cocktails and remember that it's just law school, not your whole life, and you'll probably be okay.
Yeah people seem very divided on the notes. It feels...less than honest to use another's notes, so I will make my own. And I will take your advice about the cocktails! ~ H
