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Random fashion thoughts - Page 6620  

post #99286 of 109053
I don't think there's anything wrong with accept freebies and writing a review - as long as it can be an honest review. Personally I'd love to see a thread of @Teger reviewing the worst gimmicky #menswear bullshit that's out there like pocket square wallets. It could be a hall of shame of sorts.
post #99287 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken P View Post

I don't think there's anything wrong with accept freebies and writing a review - as long as it can be an honest review. Personally I'd love to see a thread of @Teger reviewing the worst gimmicky #menswear bullshit that's out there like pocket square wallets. It could be a hall of shame of sorts.

It would be hard, if not impossible, to have a system where people are allowed to use their position to get free products, and also review things honestly though. There's a lot of research that intersects with this sort of stuff, but here's an RSA talk that I think is particularly good.

post #99288 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoreman1782 View Post

Discouraging to see people in favor of advertorial--there's enough advertorial out there

so you'd say your relationship to advertorials is....adversarial?
post #99289 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


It would be hard, if not impossible, to have a system where people are allowed to use their position to get free products, and also review things honestly though. There's a lot of research that intersects with this sort of stuff, but here's an RSA talk that I think is particularly good.

 

 

Unfortunately, most journalism is people getting free stuff in return for reviewing things dishonestly.

 

Selling display ads around a forum is fine, but if you start moving into being a content producer, everything changes. People will start sending in free stuff in the hope they will be featured in the "content" without having to pay for it. Will certain brands who buy display get more prominent coverage in the content? The brands will certainly expect so.

 

It doesn't have to be that way, but you have to set the rules very clearly before you begin. Bend them once, and everyone will want (and expect) in.

post #99290 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoreman1782 View Post

Discouraging to see people in favor of advertorial--there's enough advertorial out there

If it's clearly labelled and the content is good, what's the problem?
post #99291 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamacyborg View Post

If it's clearly labelled and the content is good, what's the problem?

I think it's way too easy for the influence of advertorials to creep into the content of editorials. You need large institutions in place to keep this from happening, and that's next to impossible when it comes to online fashion journalism -- esp on the menswear side -- because the operation of these sites requires little actual labor.

Do people really not see the benefit of having an impartial site where enthusiasts talk about what they genuinely love, without the influence of companies' marketing dollars? Literally everything in fashion -- menswear and womenswear -- has been tainted by marketing money. In 2006 through 2009-ish, I remember blogs being a lot more "pure," for example. It was just people writing about what they loved. And it was great -- you had people taking photos of things they bought and wore, and things they recommended because they had first hand experience.

Now, blogs are basically just thinly veiled marketing sites. Partly because of affiliate links (which, in full disclosure, I use on my personal blog), and partly because bloggers are just in bed with the companies they write about. One big site -- which I won't mention by name, but anyone familiar with menswear blogs can guess -- is basically just a marketing tool for the site owner's public relations firm. Run through his client list and the stuff he writes about. It's the same list of companies.

TBH, I think StyleForum at times already feels a bit too commercial, but I also appreciate that Fok and his team have to earn a living. I face this issue all the time as a guy who writes about clothing for most of his income. But to the degree that you can have people talk impartially about the things they love, without the influence of marketing departments, I think that's really valuable. The closer marketing departments get to writers, the harder and harder it is for them to maintain impartiality. Frankly, the co-optation of fashion writers is why 99.99% of magazines suck, and why 75% of blogs have started to suck (at least when compared to 8 years ago or whenever).
post #99292 of 109053
At least fashion journalism isn't as corrupt as gaming journalism #gamergate

(god what a clusterfuck)
post #99293 of 109053

"Clearly labeled" is subjective, too. Most people on this site are aware enough that (if/)when we read GQ we can gloss over the inclusion of Hugo Boss and Jack Victor stuff in recommendation lists and editorial shoots and see what's legitimately new or good. But that distinction is lost on a lot of casual readers (which is why brands want to do it, duh). Likewise, a lot of print magazines put "Advertisement" or whatever in small print at the top or bottom of advertorial pages, but if that was really clear labeling than what's the point of making the layout of the ad match the layout of the independently produced parts of the mag?

 

Sites that do native advertising/sponsored content have the same issue--and recent studies have shown that the credibility street goes both ways.

Quote:
The study shows that media companies carry a far higher risk to their reputation and value perception in allowing native advertising than their brand advertisers. However, native advertising on business news, and entertainment news sites, was less problematic than on general news sites. In addition, six out of 10 people visiting general news sites said it was not clear if a brand had paid for the content.

 

Part of the reason Styleforum is so valuable a resource is that the vast majority of content shared here is enthusiastically volunteered, and the core of users is so strong. It's difficult for user-generated-content sites like this to really branch into advertorial without alienating some of the userbase. SF is fortunate that the editorial team of Synth/Unbel/Ben/Fok are uncommonly smart people who legitimately like what they're working on. Not to mention they're really handsome.

post #99294 of 109053
Solution: feature reviews of company-gifted freebies, but those freebies have to be pharmaceuticals.

Don't mind me just tripping on nyquil wut wut wut
post #99295 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraphicNovelty View Post

At least fashion journalism isn't as corrupt as gaming journalism #gamergate

(god what a clusterfuck)


Different industries have different standards, though, which makes it hard to compare. Music and film critics don't pay for what they review. In most critical work these days though, there's so little negative criticism, bc people can't afford to burn bridges. It's more polite to just not cover something rather than publish content about why it sucks.

post #99296 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoreman1782 View Post

Part of the reason Styleforum is so valuable a resource is that the vast majority of content shared here is enthusiastically volunteered, and the core of users is so strong. It's difficult for user-generated-content sites like this to really branch into advertorial without alienating some of the userbase.

Just to clarify the form that the "alienation" will take, at least for some of us, it will be less "I'm so angry that SF is posting advertorial content" and more "Why am I wasting my time with this noise?"
post #99297 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoreman1782 View Post


Different industries have different standards, though, which makes it hard to compare. Music and film critics don't pay for what they review. In most critical work these days though, there's so little negative criticism, bc people can't afford to burn bridges. It's more polite to just not cover something rather than publish content about why it sucks.

As a general response to this continued discussion - and I'm sure plenty of other people on the forum have experience with this, too - words (journalism, whatever) are a prickly medium to navigate these days. Bridge-burning is a real concern for a lot of people (I mean, sure, it always has been) - whether with interviewees, brands, or publications - and there are a whole, whole lot of people who are more or less willing to work for nothing and about nothing. Writing about clothes suffers very obviously from this.

Yes, I am a naysayer. On the other hand, I have never really been a proponent of the fabled unbiased content, as I don't think it exists - nor am I particularly interested in reading it, I think.

For SF in particular, I think that the best we can do - and what we've done (I think admirably) so far, especially as our content increases, is continue to acknowledge our biases - Styleforum doesn't accept free stuff in exchange for reviews, which I've already said. For people who have read my Pitti ramblings, I suspect my own tendencies are pretty obvious: I am a whole lot more likely to say good things about JunHashimoto the brand, for example, because I think that Jun Hashimoto is a hilarious and fascinating person.

Moving forward, rest assured that all of us (to my knowledge) have concerns about advertorial content - and I don't feel shy saying that I, in particular, have a lot of reservations about the idea. If, if, it's ever done, I'm sure it will be as transparent as possible, and that we'll do it in a way that is very SF-like and, hopefully, appealing in its own right - perhaps we will see how well fancy ties fare in the blender, or whether "riding pants" actually hold up to horseback riding. Fok is obviously as invested (moreso, really) in the community here as anyone, as are all of the people who work/have worked for SF.
post #99298 of 109053
Styleforum is awesome cos it's a bunch of whacked-out weirdos posting honestly about their crazy expensive clothing.

I care way more about Hirsh blathering on about the shrinkage of her PBJs than some bullshit PR boilerplate going on about the fabled indigo Gods, how the jeans were made by a one-armed 92-year old monk etc....
post #99299 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


I think it's way too easy for the influence of advertorials to creep into the content of editorials. You need large institutions in place to keep this from happening, and that's next to impossible when it comes to online fashion journalism -- esp on the menswear side -- because the operation of these sites requires little actual labor.

Do people really not see the benefit of having an impartial site where enthusiasts talk about what they genuinely love, without the influence of companies' marketing dollars? Literally everything in fashion -- menswear and womenswear -- has been tainted by marketing money. In 2006 through 2009-ish, I remember blogs being a lot more "pure," for example. It was just people writing about what they loved. And it was great -- you had people taking photos of things they bought and wore, and things they recommended because they had first hand experience.

Now, blogs are basically just thinly veiled marketing sites. Partly because of affiliate links (which, in full disclosure, I use on my personal blog), and partly because bloggers are just in bed with the companies they write about. One big site -- which I won't mention by name, but anyone familiar with menswear blogs can guess -- is basically just a marketing tool for the site owner's public relations firm. Run through his client list and the stuff he writes about. It's the same list of companies.

TBH, I think StyleForum at times already feels a bit too commercial, but I also appreciate that Fok and his team have to earn a living. I face this issue all the time as a guy who writes about clothing for most of his income. But to the degree that you can have people talk impartially about the things they love, without the influence of marketing departments, I think that's really valuable. The closer marketing departments get to writers, the harder and harder it is for them to maintain impartiality. Frankly, the co-optation of fashion writers is why 99.99% of magazines suck, and why 75% of blogs have started to suck (at least when compared to 8 years ago or whenever).

 

All your points are very valid. I guess my main issue is that I'm coming at this from the point of view of being a marketer, and while I run a community site, it's extremely niche and there's only one possible way I could monetise it in a way that'd be harmful to the community, which is fairly more extreme than what's possible in other niches.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraphicNovelty View Post

At least fashion journalism isn't as corrupt as gaming journalism #gamergate

(god what a clusterfuck)

 

Major clusterfuck, the mouthbreathers on Twitter posting really nasty stuff isn't helping anything, and the weird conspiracy theories are insane. Makes me glad I don't identify as a gamer. Eurogamer posted a brilliant article about YouTubers and questionable ethics a couple months back that's worth a read.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoreman1782 View Post
 

"Clearly labeled" is subjective, too. Most people on this site are aware enough that (if/)when we read GQ we can gloss over the inclusion of Hugo Boss and Jack Victor stuff in recommendation lists and editorial shoots and see what's legitimately new or good. But that distinction is lost on a lot of casual readers (which is why brands want to do it, duh). Likewise, a lot of print magazines put "Advertisement" or whatever in small print at the top or bottom of advertorial pages, but if that was really clear labeling than what's the point of making the layout of the ad match the layout of the independently produced parts of the mag?

 

Sites that do native advertising/sponsored content have the same issue--and recent studies have shown that the credibility street goes both ways.

 

Part of the reason Styleforum is so valuable a resource is that the vast majority of content shared here is enthusiastically volunteered, and the core of users is so strong. It's difficult for user-generated-content sites like this to really branch into advertorial without alienating some of the userbase. SF is fortunate that the editorial team of Synth/Unbel/Ben/Fok are uncommonly smart people who legitimately like what they're working on. Not to mention they're really handsome.

 

Subjective, but also a legal requirement, in the UK at least.

 

Interesting study, thanks for link. I guess I've got some arguments against that study, namely that yes, of course native adverts, which in the context of a forum is going to be ads masquerading as posts within a thread are going to create a lack of trust with the readers, but I like to think that SF's owners are a bit smarter than that. There are right ways and wrong ways to do things.

 

I guess I just want to see content here that'd be hard to get access to without there being a benefit for a the brand.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bam!ChairDance View Post

Solution: feature reviews of company-gifted freebies, but those freebies have to be pharmaceuticals.

Don't mind me just tripping on nyquil wut wut wut
 

http://animalnewyork.com/2014/backdoor-pharmacist-gets-caressed-gabapentin/

http://animalnewyork.com/2014/backdoor-pharmacist-one-night-stand-etizolam/

http://animalnewyork.com/2013/backdoor-pharmacist-rides-the-walrus/

More: http://animalnewyork.com/author/backdoor-pharmacist/

post #99300 of 109053
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

Styleforum doesn't accept free stuff in exchange for reviews, which I've already said.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthese View Post

I confess that I have recently been the target of a hideous, and ultimately successful, bribe.

 

;)

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