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Random fashion thoughts - Page 6280

post #94186 of 98144
hahaha, i'm doubtful anyone thought i was serious
post #94187 of 98144
Androgeny challenge please I'll post a fit tonight
post #94188 of 98144
I literally have the exact mens version of this so I am ready to go

post #94189 of 98144
open toed heels too?
post #94190 of 98144
shog[1].gif
post #94191 of 98144
lurker[1].gif
post #94192 of 98144
i thought i'd follow up on my part of the most recent wisfw post with some further thoughts about self-presentation and ambivalence about (caring about) style. i'd be genuinely curious to hear others' thoughts on the subject.

i assume that for most of us on this forum, our interest in clothing is one aspect of a broader of interest in aesthetics and design. but while it's pretty easy to recognize and applaud the value of the latter, general interest-- after all, for those with a particular sensibility, it's a large part of what makes life worth living-- the worth of the former, specific interest is more fraught. i take it that's largely because having a serious interest in how one dresses pulls one deep into the realms of self-presentation, while admiring the beauty of a painting or the graceful geometry of a mountain (or the sleekness of one's macbook, or whatever) paradigmatically involves focusing on the object itself, rather than on oneself. (the same point holds even if we think about aesthetics in terms of how the subject perceives and interprets the object in question, as opposed to positing some intrinsic aesthetic quality in the object, e.g., beauty, harmony, etc.).

so, this is the first strike against taking an interest in one's personal style of dress: it involves focusing on oneself. and this is supposed to be troubling because that focus may easily manifest as a kind of narcissism. but things get even worse. caring about how one dresses does not primarily concern being a certain way, but rather concerns appearing to others in a certain way. this distinction is tied to the kinds of ethically-significant contrasts that have long troubled reflective people. some of these contrasts: inner vs. outer, reality vs. mere opinion or mere appearance, what is deep vs. what is superficial, and so on. while we may be tempted to chalk these contrasts up to a kind of puritan squeamishness, they occur over and over in a wide variety of philosophical and religious traditions.

in any case, one might worry that focusing on mere appearance not only amounts to spending time and energy on a pursuit that is basically worthless--thereby wasting time that could be better spent on something actually worthwhile-- but that doing so is also positively damaging, since it corrupts one's ethical sensibility. for instance, here is pascal: "we labor incessantly to embellish and preserve our imaginary being, and neglect the real one." and again, "we are not content with the life we have in ourselves and with our own existence; we wish to live an imaginary life in the thought of others, and we consequently force ourselves to appear."

now, i think this is very ripe territory, and that it touches on some of the most fundamental (and sometimes, uncomfortable) aspects of what makes us human. my question for you all is this: to what extent do you feel the pull of these ethical considerations when reflecting on the role that your interests in clothing and personal style play in your life? do you have other values that you find it difficult to reconcile with (the extent of) your interests in clothing, or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, do you find these interests wholly unproblematic on reflection?
post #94193 of 98144
(Eh, I wrote an honest pithy reply, but it's probably not worth the flames).

You should make a thread for this discussion. nod[1].gif
post #94194 of 98144
@ghostface i want to neg your post. stop telling me what's real and what's not

to your question, i have reflected on this many and a long time, which is why I now buy highly for utility rather than vanity or for the sake of experimenting. i like to think one reaches a point where they understand what works, and concurrently, find an aesthetic [designer] that expresses a creativeness in the form of clothing that is familiar. with styleforum, IMO, you are bound to find someone who expresses enough to satisfy your creative side and also provide consistency in terms of a niche/range you can dress comfortably within. by that, i think one reaches a sense of equilibrium and the idea of dressing one self in a certain manner becomes second nature and in turn can manifest into a real interest i.e. a hobby that you value like any outlet for discussion and action. it becomes less of a process of 'why?' but more about 'how?' to further grow and nurture, even to the point where it becomes routine and dare i say profession. maybe by now my train of thought is off the track but just look at no man walks alone and greg. certainly the years of interest culminated into what is today. perhaps not a direct result, but certain influential...
post #94195 of 98144
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostface View Post Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

i thought i'd follow up on my part of the most recent wisfw post with some further thoughts about self-presentation and ambivalence about (caring about) style. i'd be genuinely curious to hear others' thoughts on the subject.

i assume that for most of us on this forum, our interest in clothing is one aspect of a broader of interest in aesthetics and design. but while it's pretty easy to recognize and applaud the value of the latter, general interest-- after all, for those with a particular sensibility, it's a large part of what makes life worth living-- the worth of the former, specific interest is more fraught. i take it that's largely because having a serious interest in how one dresses pulls one deep into the realms of self-presentation, while admiring the beauty of a painting or the graceful geometry of a mountain (or the sleekness of one's macbook, or whatever) paradigmatically involves focusing on the object itself, rather than on oneself. (the same point holds even if we think about aesthetics in terms of how the subject perceives and interprets the object in question, as opposed to positing some intrinsic aesthetic quality in the object, e.g., beauty, harmony, etc.).

so, this is the first strike against taking an interest in one's personal style of dress: it involves focusing on oneself. and this is supposed to be troubling because that focus may easily manifest as a kind of narcissism. but things get even worse. caring about how one dresses does not primarily concern being a certain way, but rather concerns appearing to others in a certain way. this distinction is tied to the kinds of ethically-significant contrasts that have long troubled reflective people. some of these contrasts: inner vs. outer, reality vs. mere opinion or mere appearance, what is deep vs. what is superficial, and so on. while we may be tempted to chalk these contrasts up to a kind of puritan squeamishness, they occur over and over in a wide variety of philosophical and religious traditions.

in any case, one might worry that focusing on mere appearance not only amounts to spending time and energy on a pursuit that is basically worthless--thereby wasting time that could be better spent on something actually worthwhile-- but that doing so is also positively damaging, since it corrupts one's ethical sensibility. for instance, here is pascal: "we labor incessantly to embellish and preserve our imaginary being, and neglect the real one." and again, "we are not content with the life we have in ourselves and with our own existence; we wish to live an imaginary life in the thought of others, and we consequently force ourselves to appear."

now, i think this is very ripe territory, and that it touches on some of the most fundamental (and sometimes, uncomfortable) aspects of what makes us human. my question for you all is this: to what extent do you feel the pull of these ethical considerations when reflecting on the role that your interests in clothing and personal style play in your life? do you have other values that you find it difficult to reconcile with (the extent of) your interests in clothing, or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, do you find these interests wholly unproblematic on reflection?

 

 

I feel this same conflict, not due to ethical considerations, but because of my eventual desire for financial independence.  If money = freedom, how much freedom is a pair of baller sneakers worth?

 

The ethical considerations don't actually bother me much, because I find when I'm actually trying to impress someone (i.e. on a date), I dress a very specific way and avoid most of the clothes that I really love, which are silly and fun.  In other words, I know what I'd wear if I were really concerned about the impression I give off, and it's not normally what I reach for.

post #94196 of 98144

Love the FI angle KJ - you into ERE/MMM?

 

Similarly - that's where my consideration mainly comes into it.

 

The vanity aspect of dressing is, for me, somewhat empowering. There's a selfishness to the glorification of the personal image that is rewarding precisely because others' react to it with compliments, or even self-consciously. Perhaps this says a lot about how image-drive we all are, or how quickly judgements are made, but the clothing one wears does wield a very definitive soft power and influence. Personally I find that somewhat empowering, although I definitely temper my impulses (for financial and ethical reasons). However, as with many things, if one spends so much time caring about, thinking through, planning and being consumed by clothing then one misses out on a whole lot of other stuff.

 

Also, walking around and seeing myself look good makes me feel great. That is completely narcissistic, but I feel as long as I'm self-aware then I'm OK.

post #94197 of 98144
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingJulien View Post

If money = freedom
It isn't. Money doesn't fall from the sky - apart from the dotcom geniuses and other unusual circumstances, making more money = working more and harder, and in positions that pay according to the sacrifices one is willing to make. In most cases, more money = more servitude and less freedom.
post #94198 of 98144
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingJulien View Post
 

 

I feel this same conflict, not due to ethical considerations, but because of my eventual desire for financial independence.  If money = freedom, how much freedom is a pair of baller sneakers worth?

 

The ethical considerations don't actually bother me much, because I find when I'm actually trying to impress someone (i.e. on a date), I dress a very specific way and avoid most of the clothes that I really love, which are silly and fun.  In other words, I know what I'd wear if I were really concerned about the impression I give off, and it's not normally what I reach for.


Isn't it just the opposite though? Maybe I'm drawing too heavily from fight club here, but isn't 'stuff' the total opposite of freedom? It's the american dream. Get more stuff and be more stuck paying it off while being another cog.

 

Stuff begets stuff.


Not to get too political here, but one of the reasons my generation (and the next) seem so politically/socially apathetic is the gigantic amount of student loan debt we have. It forces one to work work work. Owing someone a shit ton of money with little to no safety net is a pretty big reason to not go out and have time to protest or stand for what you believe in.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonerMatt View Post
 

Love the FI angle KJ - you into ERE/MMM?

 

Similarly - that's where my consideration mainly comes into it.

 

The vanity aspect of dressing is, for me, somewhat empowering. There's a selfishness to the glorification of the personal image that is rewarding precisely because others' react to it with compliments, or even self-consciously. Perhaps this says a lot about how image-drive we all are, or how quickly judgements are made, but the clothing one wears does wield a very definitive soft power and influence. Personally I find that somewhat empowering, although I definitely temper my impulses (for financial and ethical reasons). However, as with many things, if one spends so much time caring about, thinking through, planning and being consumed by clothing then one misses out on a whole lot of other stuff.

 

Also, walking around and seeing myself look good makes me feel great. That is completely narcissistic, but I feel as long as I'm self-aware then I'm OK.

 

Many of these things resonate with me.

 

Like many people, I have a few reasons...

In sophomore year of college, I broke my face when I crashed while training (cycling). I definitely became way more self conscious about how I looked then and having a bunch of surgeries on your face doesn't help with that, but I took it out on myself by trying to get back on the horse and racing a ton. That went well till it didn't and I had to stop riding due to injuries.

 

Anyway, in the many years that have passed, I've dealt with a bunch of injuries, life things not working out, etc, just like many people have. When I started working again last year after a job fell through due to my injuries, I started settling into myself again. I finally felt much more confident, healthy, and generally better about myself.

Starting to dress better was a way for me to express that. Additionally, dressing up on a blah day definitely makes me feel better and carry myself differently. 


Edited by ridethecliche - 4/9/14 at 6:27am
post #94199 of 98144
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post


It isn't. Money doesn't fall from the sky - apart from the dotcom geniuses and other unusual circumstances, making more money = working more and harder, and in positions that pay according to the sacrifices one is willing to make. In most cases, more money = more servitude and less freedom.

 

I think you're talking past each other here.

 

Having more money in the bank/invested gives one more options and more time (ie, if I have enough saved to last me until the rest of my life I have opened many more doors through freeing up time, etc) - that money was gotten through work and sacrifice, but it buys me freedom.

 

While you're right, earning more money requires more time and sacrifice - possessing more money provides far greater utility than having spent it (which is simply opportunity cost, a choice unmade means there are more opportunities).

 

Ridethecliche - I think you and KJ are saying the same thing. He's asking a question that demonstrates stuff is not freedom, and wondering how valuable that freedom potentially provided by those dollars is worth, you're extrapolating that perspective, but it's a shared perspective.

post #94200 of 98144
Will post androgyny challenge if you're OK with it, then.
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