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The Ultimate Vass Porn Thread - Page 368

post #5506 of 13088

The issue with gemming can't be brought up to often, since there's still so many people out there who have no clue what gemming is and how it affect a shoe.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

 

Thanks, G.  I kind of assumed your first point, but was surprised that the likes of EG, JL, G&G, and the "handgrade" ranges of other makers, would be included.

 

So, in answer to my previous question, Vass shoes are not gemmed, and are completely hand-welted and hand-stitched soles?  Man, I love them even more now.  Any idea what other makers fall into this category?

 

As for blake rapid, fair point, but it's horses for courses: for a lightweight loafer or something, I get it, but to be honest I always prefer the way a corked, welted shoe moulds to the foot.

 

Anyway, I guess both you and the Hoo are right: gemming does fail, it is inferior to a totally hand-sewn construction, but in the real world (especially for vain self-obsessed types like us who rotate several pairs), we might never know.  The big point about what Hoo said, I think, is that it puts a question mark over paying so much for the top brands - unless you're going to treat them with kid gloves and wear them twice a year.  I've no issue with a pair of $300 Cheaneys with that construction, but if I'd just bought a G&G MTO for $1300+, I'd be pissed.

 

So, Vass rocks then.  No dissenters in this thread, I'm sure. :)

 

Another thing that happens often, people confuse blake/rapid-construction with blake construction. Sure, both have the blake stitch, but it's two different ways to make a shoe with very different result. This is blake/rapid: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YEgN9qS3YHY/UKT1f2QHMtI/AAAAAAAAAZo/5LS7C4yY30A/s1600/blake_rapid.jpeg

(small picture I know, but just google it and you get lots of information.) Blake/rapid can be resoled just as easily as welted shoes, and they are equally water resistant, and also often use cork filling. It's basically just using an extra mid sole instead of a welt.

post #5507 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by isshinryu101 View Post

Goodyear MEANS gemmed. In handwelt, a part of the leather insole in cored out and sewn to the welt.. In Goodyear, a piece of textile is glued to the insole and the welt sewn to it (then to the upper).

I believe that actually goodyear welt construction can be and once was done with a leather welt strip instead of gemming. So Goodyear does not really mean gemmed technically. Although in terms of how Goodyear is currently done by the VAST majority of makers the two are indeed nearly interchangable.
post #5508 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Gemmed or hand welted?
It's all relative. But goodyear welted is only as good as cement construction due to gemming let along the numerous cost cutting materials used, eg celastic stiffener instead of leather, canvass lining instead of leather, cheap metal shanks, etc.

It's ludicrous to argue that Goodyear condstruction is not bad because it has been around for a long time.

No one is arguing that Goodyear construction is good simply because it has been around a long time. But rather that since shoe production via the goodyear method, including gemming, has produced millions, if not billions of shoes in the past 50 years and yet 'gemming failure' is only even known to some tiny sub specialty of special shoe makers and cobblers it seems completely ludicrous to me that there is much hidden danger to worry of.

I'm not stating that it equals handwelting, but rather that it is far from something to turned from in fear of buying a less than durable shoe.
post #5509 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

The issue with gemming can't be brought up to often, since there's still so many people out there who have no clue what gemming is and how it affect a shoe

I disagree, it is brought too often in every shoe thread imaginable, of course there's many people that have no clue and just don't care (like me), its lame, tiresome, not important, etc etc. a goog year welted shoe failure?, I've been wearing those for at least 15 years and never had any problems. I,ve even been wearing a couple of $80 Glued Ecco shoes for 10 years and they are just fine too.
post #5510 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post

Vass shell, from left saddle, burgundy, saddle, whiskey and burgundy






nephew,
good looking shells, enjoy wearing
post #5511 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post

Yes the difference is subtle but a little more apparent in person, saddle is more orange, whiskey is lighter and yellowish. The ptb was inspired in the shoe Moo posted a few pages back but here in the F since I already have a few ptb's in the P2. Thanks

I hear you, it is a beauty btw.
post #5512 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post

Vass shell, from left saddle, burgundy, saddle, whiskey and burgundy


A wonderful collection of shell shoes.
post #5513 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post


No one is arguing that Goodyear construction is good simply because it has been around a long time. But rather that since shoe production via the goodyear method, including gemming, has produced millions, if not billions of shoes in the past 50 years and yet 'gemming failure' is only even known to some tiny sub specialty of special shoe makers and cobblers it seems completely ludicrous to me that there is much hidden danger to worry of.

I'm not stating that it equals handwelting, but rather that it is far from something to turned from in fear of buying a less than durable shoe.

 

The fallacy in your argument is that you decline to acknowledge the inferiority and problems of the cost-down construction method when they are not visually identifiable.

 

GY construction DOES produce less durable shoes compare to hand welts.  It is perfectly fine to cut corners and cost down for mass production, but marketing cost down versions having the same cadence is wrong.  Especially in those 'handgrade', 'handmade' claims by some manufacturers.  Caveat Emptor.

 

That being said, I am not against GY, McKay, or even cemented constructions and I have own shoes in all three.  Gunning for bespoke now, but would still buy anything less if the price is right.  But, the last should be first, so no U last for me. 

 

p.s., I doubt GY constructed shoes reached 'billions' of unit volume, especially when the major footwear enablers/shoe producing countries like China, Taiwan and Korea use primarily cemented.  Even McKay would be considered as high-end.

post #5514 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarthur View Post

nephew,
good looking shells, enjoy wearing

Mac, you need the Vass in your life.
post #5515 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

A wonderful collection of shell shoes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarthur View Post

nephew,
good looking shells, enjoy wearing

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstomcat View Post

I hear you, it is a beauty btw.


Thank you!!
post #5516 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by j ingevaldsson View Post

The issue with gemming can't be brought up to often, since there's still so many people out there who have no clue what gemming is and how it affect a shoe.

 

 

Another thing that happens often, people confuse blake/rapid-construction with blake construction. Sure, both have the blake stitch, but it's two different ways to make a shoe with very different result. This is blake/rapid: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YEgN9qS3YHY/UKT1f2QHMtI/AAAAAAAAAZo/5LS7C4yY30A/s1600/blake_rapid.jpeg

(small picture I know, but just google it and you get lots of information.) Blake/rapid can be resoled just as easily as welted shoes, and they are equally water resistant, and also often use cork filling. It's basically just using an extra mid sole instead of a welt.

 

I was going to say something about the blake/blake rapid thing, but you've probably put it better than I could have.  I can't remember seeing a corked blake rapid shoe, but I guess I don't have any made by the better Italian makers, who I believe are the main users of this method.  Anyway, good point.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rikod View Post


I disagree, it is brought too often in every shoe thread imaginable, of course there's many people that have no clue and just don't care (like me), its lame, tiresome, not important, etc etc. a goog year welted shoe failure?, I've been wearing those for at least 15 years and never had any problems. I,ve even been wearing a couple of $80 Glued Ecco shoes for 10 years and they are just fine too.

 

I agree on your last point - as I said above, those of us who wear our shoes a couple of times a month can go a lifetime without ever experiencing any problems, and might not know exactly why our shoes are looking worn out anyway.  But I don't think this issue is raised too much: there are a million blogs and online magazines with people showing off new pairs of shoes, with information on sizing, price and availability.  If that were the only shoe talk on SF, I doubt I'd bother reading it so much.  It's this detailed, specialist, almost mysterious and frankly self-indulgent bickering over tiny details, that makes it special.  I came to SF first because of questions about shoes,  and only joined to sell a pair (thanks, whoever bought my oversized blue double monks), and without this seemingly unnecessarily intricate dialogue, I'd never have stayed.  So thanks to the shoemakers, shoe repairers, shoe sellers and the serious shoe nerds, for talking about stuff that I can never talk about with real human beings!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post


A wonderful collection of shell shoes.

 

Amen.  That saddle shell is something else.

post #5517 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

The fallacy in your argument is that you decline to acknowledge the inferiority and problems of the cost-down construction method when they are not visually identifiable.

GY construction DOES produce less durable shoes compare to hand welts.  It is perfectly fine to cut corners and cost down for mass production, but marketing cost down versions having the same cadence is wrong.  Especially in those 'handgrade', 'handmade' claims by some manufacturers.  Caveat Emptor.

That being said, I am not against GY, McKay, or even cemented constructions and I have own shoes in all three.  Gunning for bespoke now, but would still buy anything less if the price is right.  But, the last should be first, so no U last for me. 

p.s., I doubt GY constructed shoes reached 'billions' of unit volume, especially when the major footwear enablers/shoe producing countries like China, Taiwan and Korea use primarily cemented.  Even McKay would be considered as high-end.

Actually I do care about the 'cost down' construction methods, to any extent that they diminish the user experience or longevity.

But I don't care a whit if a plastic toe puff performs just as well as a leather one.

And I do object to claims of 'handmade' if indeed that is not true.

My only goal here is to keep the information accurate as to the advantages/disadvantages in the final product and what it means to the end user. And since this is on the Vass thread I'll say again that I have tremendous respect for their methods and products.
post #5518 of 13088
plastic toe puff/heel stiffener is far inferior to leather ones IME. Not sure whether it's just me, but they're fare less breathable, and don't mold at all to the shape of the foot, and sometimes make weird popping sounds when walking. I also have a pair of zip boots where the plastic heel puff caused excessive friction and damage against the inner lining.

I don't understand why they're so universal. A left over piece of stiff leather can't be much material cost, yet it performs so much better.
post #5519 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

I believe that actually goodyear welt construction can be and once was done with a leather welt strip instead of gemming. So Goodyear does not really mean gemmed technically. Although in terms of how Goodyear is currently done by the VAST majority of makers the two are indeed nearly interchangable.

Nope. Can't effectively glue leather to leather here. Always some type of textile used. It is what the machine is designed to use. Not sure if you understand 100%. The welt IS leather. The welt is just sewn to a piece of textile that is glued to the insole. The welt IS leather, it's the FEATHER that is textile. In hand welted shoes, the feather is created by scoring a piece of the leather insole and the welt is sewn to that.

Goodyear just eliminates the step of hand-creating a feather by scoring the insole. Instead, it uses a piece of textile glued to the insole by a machine as the feather.
post #5520 of 13088
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdot View Post

No one is arguing that Goodyear construction is good simply because it has been around a long time. But rather that since shoe production via the goodyear method, including gemming, has produced millions, if not billions of shoes in the past 50 years and yet 'gemming failure' is only even known to some tiny sub specialty of special shoe makers and cobblers it seems completely ludicrous to me that there is much hidden danger to worry of.

I'm not stating that it equals handwelting, but rather that it is far from something to turned from in fear of buying a less than durable shoe.

keep in mind that digital watches have surpassed movements in most watch sales today. In many cases, they keep time just as accurately (or even more so) than their predecessors. Maybe it's not really all about whether the gemming will fail or not. Maybe it is about knowing your shoes are 100% handmade works of art... or not.
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