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Cleans vs. Pendlay Rows

post #1 of 34
7/22/09 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 
As the title suggests. I'm just beginning Starting Strength. The original program has cleans, but some variations seem to substitute rows. What are the pros and cons of each, and how should I pick one or the other, based on my goals?

Thanks,
Will
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post #2 of 34
7/22/09 at 5:14pm
You could search for "Starting Strength" and these phrases and get a dozen discussions - along with one really good one from forum.bodybuilding.com (and more than a couple of responses directly from Rippetoe).

as I understand the arguments:
Rippetoe - If you don't do cleans, you're a pussy. They build more functional strength than rows.

Rows over cleans - rows build mass and strength, if not as effectively. Cleans may be frowned upon in your big-box gym, and you really should have an experienced teacher in Olympic lifts help you learn the move.

and the third option is from Stronglifts - neither cleans nor rows, but inverted rows.
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post #3 of 34
7/22/09 at 5:21pm
While I'm familiar with Glenn Pendlay, I'd never seen a Pendlay Row until I googled it. I'd stick with the power clean as you're likely to be using more weight and building more strength. Any row variation is going to heavily involve the biceps. I'd hate to limit my strength/progress because my biceps gave out.
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post #4 of 34
7/22/09 at 7:42pm
I recently starting doing some training again. I've always lifted with basic compound movements and with all the huzzah about Starting Strength figured I'd give it a read and a shot. I'm doing the lifts with Rippetoe's form suggestions (previously was going with what I'd learned from Stuart McRobert) but kind of with my own modified program. I tried doing power cleans but for a few reasons decided to forgo them in favor of rows. Primarily was because I'm one of those individuals he mentioned who has longer forearms than my humerus and even with taking a wider grip the bar will end up in my throat and kill me. Secondly, as it's a kind of technical lift, I'd rather not learn from a book and would rather be coached in it. And finally, I'm not an athlete. I don't really care about generating power. So I mix in rows and chins and call it a day.
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post #5 of 34
7/22/09 at 9:08pm
Cleans and rows are a completely different movement...
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post #6 of 34
7/22/09 at 9:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayland View Post
Any row variation is going to heavily involve the biceps.

Not really.
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post #7 of 34
7/22/09 at 11:12pm
Thread Starter 
Hmm. I've learned cleans from a friend, who learned them from one of our other friends, who has a coach. I lift at school, so I could ask a football or wrestling coach look at my form. If powercleans are a truly a superior lift that just require more focus on technique, I'll go for them. However, I wouldn't do them just because Rippetoe says I'd be a pussy otherwise. Power (for the sake of power) isn't really appealing to me. I'd just like to have big enough lats for a nicely tapered back.
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post #8 of 34
7/22/09 at 11:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmmk View Post
Hmm. I've learned cleans from a friend, who learned them from one of our other friends, who has a coach. I lift at school, so I could ask a football or wrestling coach look at my form.

Chances are they won't know wtf they are doing.

Quote:
If powercleans are a truly a superior lift that just require more focus on technique, I'll go for them.

Depends what your goals are. The best program in the world is useless if you're not going to stick with it.

Quote:
However, I wouldn't do them just because Rippetoe says I'd be a pussy otherwise. I'm sure he's really great at picking up heavy shit, but if I looked like him, I would never get laid.

SS is about getting stronger. You will of course also get bigger if you eat enough. It is impossible to get a lot stronger without also gaining muscle. However, Mark himself admits that this is not the ideal program for "body building". I think his advice is to build up a good strength base and then if that's what you want, explore further options. However, he doesn't hold body building in very high regard from what I've read in SS and on the Strengthmill forums where he has a Q&A going.
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post #9 of 34
7/23/09 at 12:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumbie View Post
Primarily was because I'm one of those individuals he mentioned who has longer forearms than my humerus and even with taking a wider grip the bar will end up in my throat and kill me. Secondly, as it's a kind of technical lift, I'd rather not learn from a book and would rather be coached in it.
I thought I was one of these special flowers too (and posted in the oly lifting thread for help), until I just tried it. I didn't have a coach, just followed what it said in the book and on SS DVD. I adjusted my grip width a bit and it worked out fine and I'm doing cleans now.
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post #10 of 34
7/23/09 at 12:58am
Cleans are just more fun.

Snatches are even more fun (no pun).

There's something really satisfying about picking heavy stuff off the ground and sending it over your head quickly. This isn't necessarily any more noble of an endeavor than bodybuilding but I'm one of those who like to feel entertained when I lift instead of putting in 'work' in order to achieve or maintain a physique (which, fortunately, is achieved naturally through my lifting anyway).
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post #11 of 34
7/23/09 at 2:47am
Football and wrestling coaches are not Olympic lifting coaches. Rippetoe is a 50-something man with numerous injuries from his days of competitive powerlifting - I wouldn't really expect him to feature on the cover of Men's Health next month. But he does know his shit about getting strong, and that's what the program is designed to do. Power cleans and other explosive lifts are a portion of almost every old-school 3-5x5 strength-building routine, along with squats and deadlifts. But they are technical, and not something that can necessarily be done at your local 24 Hour Fitness. If you're counting on "lats just big enough for a nice taper" to get laid, you're going to be a virgin long after Conne finally gets a piece. If you eat healthy and build strength, you're going to have a body more than admirable in the eyes of the ladies.
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post #12 of 34
7/23/09 at 3:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbaquiran View Post
I thought I was one of these special flowers too (and posted in the oly lifting thread for help), until I just tried it. I didn't have a coach, just followed what it said in the book and on SS DVD. I adjusted my grip width a bit and it worked out fine and I'm doing cleans now.

Tried em. Wasn't working for me even with a wider grip. As I said, I have no need for explosive power as my days of competing in anything are long over. The closest I've come in recent memory is tossing my friend's kid into the air on the beach and I certainly am not putting in gym time for that purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbozed View Post
I'm one of those who like to feel entertained when I lift instead of putting in 'work' in order to achieve or maintain a physique (which, fortunately, is achieved naturally through my lifting anyway).

I get my entertainment by (i) looking at chicks in spandex (ii) laughing at all the clowns doing 50 sets of curls to peak their biceps from 25 different angles. It's most amusing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milosz View Post
Football and wrestling coaches are not Olympic lifting coaches.

Rippetoe is a 50-something man with numerous injuries from his days of competitive powerlifting - I wouldn't really expect him to feature on the cover of Men's Health next month. But he does know his shit about getting strong, and that's what the program is designed to do. Power cleans and other explosive lifts are a portion of almost every old-school 3-5x5 strength-building routine, along with squats and deadlifts. But they are technical, and not something that can necessarily be done at your local 24 Hour Fitness.

If you're counting on "lats just big enough for a nice taper" to get laid, you're going to be a virgin long after Conne finally gets a piece. If you eat healthy and build strength, you're going to have a body more than admirable in the eyes of the ladies.


Well said.
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post #13 of 34
7/23/09 at 3:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by milosz View Post
Football and wrestling coaches are not Olympic lifting coaches.

Rippetoe is a 50-something man with numerous injuries from his days of competitive powerlifting - I wouldn't really expect him to feature on the cover of Men's Health next month. But he does know his shit about getting strong, and that's what the program is designed to do. Power cleans and other explosive lifts are a portion of almost every old-school 3-5x5 strength-building routine, along with squats and deadlifts. But they are technical, and not something that can necessarily be done at your local 24 Hour Fitness.

If you're counting on "lats just big enough for a nice taper" to get laid, you're going to be a virgin long after Conne finally gets a piece. If you eat healthy and build strength, you're going to have a body more than admirable in the eyes of the ladies.

Right. So when you say that the coaches at school aren't necessarily qualified to teach powerlifting, is that endorsement for cleans or rows?

Anyway, I edited out the Rippetoe comment a bit after I originally posted it because it felt douchebaggy. All I meant was that Rip is a big dude, and that high school hipster girls don't really go for big dudes.
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post #14 of 34
7/23/09 at 3:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmmk View Post
All I meant was that Rip is a big dude, and that high school hipster girls don't really go for big dudes.

Flash your penor.
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post #15 of 34
7/23/09 at 8:56am
OP,
I haven't noticed anyone coming out and recommending Pendlay Rows over Power Cleans. There is a reason for that. The Power Clean is a superior movement which recruits more muscle. Learn to Power Clean. It's really not difficult at all and doesn't require an O-lifting coach. There is a lot of technique in a clean and jerk; the power clean is much more of a brute force version.
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