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The Official Wine Thread - Page 1285

post #19261 of 20943
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

That's a good point. If vine management and sorting is carefully done tho I feel like older vines taste more concentrated
this is a bit broad, IMO. Lots can affect the feeling of "concentration". A hot year producing higher alcohol can make a wine taste bigger and more concentrated. A bad year with thin crappy wines, wineries may add sugar or something to help create a bigger wine (I wonder if some places add bits of stems in there as it ferments with the hope of getting more tannins). Better grape selection will produce more concentrated wines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post

Are there wineries that harvest haphazardly using old vines? I feel like if a winery is going to commit to old vines they're more likely to pick carefully
Chianti in the 80's maybe. Burgundy in the 80's maybe. I agree that if a vineyard has really old vines, a winery is probably going to be more inclined to pick carefully and charge more for their wines, but there's likely plenty out there who don't bother and instead elect to produce more mid-range wines and stick "vieilles vignes" on the label.

I guess my point is i don't believe that "old vines" makes or breaks the majority of wines, and any "gain" you can get from old vines can be just as quickly ruined by a number of outside factors.
post #19262 of 20943
I could swear I've seen/read folks say the truly old vines have lower yields than younger vines.
post #19263 of 20943
vineyard yield vs. % of that yield that a winery wants to use to make their wine.
post #19264 of 20943
Yeah, I'm pretty leery of the general "old vines" or "vieilles vignes" having much real meaning in regards to what's in any particular bottle too.
post #19265 of 20943
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomestar View Post

this is a bit broad, IMO. Lots can affect the feeling of "concentration". A hot year producing higher alcohol can make a wine taste bigger and more concentrated. A bad year with thin crappy wines, wineries may add sugar or something to help create a bigger wine (I wonder if some places add bits of stems in there as it ferments with the hope of getting more tannins). Better grape selection will produce more concentrated wines.
Chianti in the 80's maybe. Burgundy in the 80's maybe. I agree that if a vineyard has really old vines, a winery is probably going to be more inclined to pick carefully and charge more for their wines, but there's likely plenty out there who don't bother and instead elect to produce more mid-range wines and stick "vieilles vignes" on the label.

I guess my point is i don't believe that "old vines" makes or breaks the majority of wines, and any "gain" you can get from old vines can be just as quickly ruined by a number of outside factors.

i also dont believe that old vines "make or break" wines. but they do taste different if all else is same.

i guess now we're into semantics, but i dont know how else to explain what i taste besides concentrated. it's not the same taste as chaptalized wines or whole cluster fermentation (ie adding bits of stems), which a ton of burgundians do. DRC sometimes does 100% whole cluster and on IDTT Frederic Barnier was saying they always add at least some whole cluster across the Jadot wines.

wine from actually really old vines like at least 50, 60 years old have this kind of extract like taste. everything is way more intense.

from what i remember talking to a vigneron old vines develop tannins more quickly so you can actually harvest earlier in hot years without compromising development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I could swear I've seen/read folks say the truly old vines have lower yields than younger vines.

older vines have smaller berries, smaller clusters, and less berries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gomestar View Post

vineyard yield vs. % of that yield that a winery wants to use to make their wine.

i mean i think sorting is important but above a certain level most wineries do pretty strict harvesting. for kermit lynch wines they tell you the actual yield levels versus HA which is a decent rough estimate of % yield a winery wants to use to make their wine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Yeah, I'm pretty leery of the general "old vines" or "vieilles vignes" having much real meaning in regards to what's in any particular bottle too.

yeah the label might mean something might not. also "old" is so relative. i feel like in california or oregon people could label 20, 30 year old wines as "old"

a lot of times if you're actually interested you can look up the average age of the vines they use. the big importers list a lot of specs for all the wines they bring in. which is such a pain to look up in the store
post #19266 of 20943
Whole cluster is so distinctive and I tend to really enjoy it. One of the wine makers I got to spend some time with back in February said whole cluster works best in warmer areas and with riper fruit. He said you're seeing a return to whole cluster in Burgundy due to global warming. He thinks the stems work better in a ferment when the grapes had warmer temps and work less well in cooler areas/vintages.

Then there's co-fermentation too.
post #19267 of 20943
WTSO had a 2010 Brunello for $23 bucks with free shipping on 4 and no tax.

I grabbed 6!
post #19268 of 20943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Whole cluster is so distinctive and I tend to really enjoy it. One of the wine makers I got to spend some time with back in February said whole cluster works best in warmer areas and with riper fruit. He said you're seeing a return to whole cluster in Burgundy due to global warming. He thinks the stems work better in a ferment when the grapes had warmer temps and work less well in cooler areas/vintages.

Then there's co-fermentation too.


yeah. IDTT interviewed Aubert de Villaine and he was saying they do 100% whole cluster if the year is hot. I think I remember him saying that the trend is less whole cluster, but who knows. rajat parr also does whole cluster for sandhi and domaine the de la cote. he was also saying it was cuz he thought the hotter weather was more suited to it.

i dont know of any wineries that intentionally do co-fermentation (unles you're talking about some other co-fermentatino). there are a few wineries that pick through a field and the field is a mix of things or they just dont really quite know what they are cuz they haven't identified using something more concrete like DNA. most wineries vinify everything separately. like blocks within vineyards or vines and even different patches of soils are vinified separately so you can blend it together later.

man i haven't talked about wine with somebody in forever. people my age aren't really into wine. i feel like most people i meet don't care, don't drink, or just drink shots
post #19269 of 20943
Off the top of my head Syrah and Viognier are not uncommon to be purposely co-fermented. Had some in Paso out of the barrel. It happens in Cote-Rotie and some down in Oz do it.
post #19270 of 20943
Here's an article that was in my bookmarks: http://www.wineanorak.com/wholebunch.htm
post #19271 of 20943
ah right they do that in cote rotie. thanks for the article
post #19272 of 20943
The most important aspect of an older vine is that it has a very deep root system and so it's not as subject to the vagaries of that year's climate. Yields do diminish after a certain point, depending on the type of vine / rootstock, which is why eventually vineyards are re-planted, usually in sections to maintain minimum production levels.

Managing vineyard yields is a bit of a double edged sword. Some vines just want to put out a certain amount of fruit, and dropping a ton of fruit just yields outrageous canopies that you then fight for the rest of that vintage. I remember tasting a gorgeous Pinot Noir from the RRV with the winemaker and the vineyard manager, and discussing yields with them. It was not a particularly tightly spaced vineyard, and yields were typically around 7 - 8 tons per acre. The vineyard manager told me that the owner of the vineyard wanted the yields under 5 tons to see if it would yield more concentration, and higher quality fruit, but what they found was that the highest quality fruit was at 7 - 8. I subsequently had that same conversation with other winery owners and found a pattern, which is that the vineyard would tell you what it should be producing, and fighting that yield often was a losing battle.
post #19273 of 20943
Quote:
Originally Posted by indesertum View Post


man i haven't talked about wine with somebody in forever. people my age aren't really into wine. i feel like most people i meet don't care, don't drink, or just drink shots
I'm currently studying in New England and you'd think there would be enough yuppies to get a bottle share together, but no luck in the past year. I almost exclusively drink nice bottles with my girlfriend and the chef/owner of this French bistro we both enjoy going to.
post #19274 of 20943
These Italian wines are so god damn tight
post #19275 of 20943
Barolo needs at least 15 years.

/Slewfoot
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